The Purse: Unpacking Femme Privilege
 

We have knapsacks and backpacks, perhaps it's time to stir the things around in the Purse to take a look at Femme Privilege.

Many of us "pass" as straight whether we want to or not.

There is a long list of privileges associated with being Femme in the outside world. Let's talk about them.
I also believe that privilege can be situational. i.e. Femme privilege looks very different on a website geared toward Butches, Femmes, and Queer folks than it does at the supermarket or on the job.

So there it is. Let's have a discussion between Femmes and Feminine-identified people to see if we can do a little unpacking.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.....
 

... for starting this thread...

Are you in my head??? I've been trying for several weeks to formulate my thoughts for such a thread in a manner that would make sense to others and open a dialogue.

Today is quite busy for me, but I will be back to expand...

Bottom line, for me, from my perspective... I think as a femme I have experienced far more privilege than my beautiful Jess has received male privilege.

I am not on the receiving end of the blatent stares, the not so quiet whispers.... most have no idea of my orientation until I tell them.

ACK! Back to :accountant: before I go off on a tear!

Thanks again... very interested to hear others' points of view.

Christie

THIS! THIS! THIS!

My own layers of growing up poor, educationally disadvantaged, being fat, being from the South (and all that it implies for other people), and the added layer of my brand of Femme are sometimes hard to disentangle from the Femme privilege.
Add in the fact that class-wise, I dont have a lot of the markers that some folks have. I think they call that "no home raising". :)
I sometimes end up feeling like no matter the fact that I "pass" as a straight woman, I am still NEVER going to be the "right kind" of woman.

I once took a womens' studies class that began with an exercise in privilege. Our professor passed out an equal number of tootsie rolls to every student in the room. We were asked to remove a piece of candy from our privilege pile if we could not answer in the affirmative for each question she posed, such as:

I grew up with more than 20 books in my home.

My family never worried about where meals would come from.

Questions around race and education and class were all asked, although I distinctly recall that no questions of size were addressed. When the exercise was complete, and as white as I am, I was still among a group in the room with the fewest tootsie rolls on her desk.

It occurs to me now that had the questions been inclusive of size, I would have had a larger share of 'privilege' at the end of that lesson. It also occurs to me now how much it meant to me to have so few pieces of candy.

We tend to hold our oppression close to us, like a kind of prize. I want to keep in mind of this - that even while I am the daughter of poor, white Southern uneducated people - that holding to my lack of power will not gain me anything, and certainly will not bring me any closer to netting a wider share of power for everyone I believe deserves a more fair share.

While it's true that I pass to the unsuspecting as a straight woman, it's also and equally true that I am not one. I need to be cognizant of the ways in which this can both harm my community and however, if ever, it can serve us. Being read as straight sometimes has the unintended affect of meaning that I am allowed entrance into spaces that would not otherwise permit Queer. And once inside, I have more power to do and change what more visible others might not have.

I have to hold this kind of power carefully, recognizing that backlash is ever immanent and always dangerous. I cannot go incognito. It's their lack of perception that is at issue; not my lack of forthrightness.

I also can pass for being straight and that hurts when you want to date someone who thinks you are. I grew up with three brothers and I have had to work for everything I have now. Some people ask me why I waited so long to *come* out and I explain to them, that my father, was a man who did not like gay people. When I was 28 years old, he passed away and I was finally able to be me. Having to keep your true self hidden for so long, makes you long for your own identity even more. That is why when someone ask's me if I am gay, I tell them very proudly that yes I am; even if I lose my job as a result. I am proud to be femme. I also grew up in the South.

Have a good day,

Zimmy

WHat an excellent thread!! I have to add femme privilege on top of all the other privileges I have: white, upper middle class upbringing, educated, previously heterosexual married mama, able bodied. I chose Judaism as an adult so I don't feel as though I have encountered a lot of antisemitism in my life. The privilege of being a femme and having the ability to disclose my sexual orientation if I choose to is a definite privilege. When I first started dating my partner I did not notice any difference in how I was treated. As time has gone on I am now noticing people looking or seeming uncomfortable. I am sure it was there before I was just oblivious. It never even occurred to me to look for or expect that before because I have never encountered any discrimination in my life.

To those I have come out to in my community and in my family I have experienced some not very nice reactions. The only thing I think has made it easier is the femme invisibility factor. I don't look queer to most straight people so I am more palatable I guess.

The interesting thing to me is that the place I feel the most out of place is the queer community. I don't have any credibility. I've only had one partner, hopefully always will. I don't have a history of activism. I'm not sure if time will change that. So many of the experiences of other femmes here I have yet to experience or may never experience. I guess I don't know how to unpack all this privilege. I'm trying.

I feel it is a priviledge to be a femme in a world that assumes me to be straight. It is a priviledge to me because I am given the opportunity to educate and possible take some of the hate away. My female straight friends are always eager to listen and learn. My friend Melizsa imagined that because I am femme, that my boifriend would have a certain look (Joe Dirt anyone?) It meant a lot to me to teach her. In turn, she educated her family. It was a neat cycle to watch.

i dont care if i look like a schmoe...i'm thanking everyone
 

i dont know what to do with this thread.

i had a super shinyshiny femme chip (with the word " marginalized " inscribed on it in really pretty foo foo calligraphy) on my shoulder and Medusa just poinked it offa me ingloriously with one mighty and gentle flick of her dainty finger.

i dont know whether to swear like a longshorefemme or be uber-grateful. or both. prob'ly going to do both.

i can only shuffle around the following two thoughts at the moment:

1) i dont want to pass. i stopped wanting to pass a bit later in life than some (32) but once i stopped i never looked back. if i thought my bangs would look good parted in the center i'd have "queer-as-fuck" tattooed on my forehead.

2) my white privilege feels more omnipresent to me than any of the other institutionalized ways in which i might benefit. it's the one i feel most keenly anyway. because i live in HippievilleUSA i am blessed with an environment that, quite literally, finds it unremarkable that i'm queer. that same environment is also wildly indifferent to the fact that i am poor, fat, well-educated, and that i'm constantly humming tunelessly. the one thing about me that's difficult not to note is the one thing for which i would prefer not to be noticed: i'm as annoying as hell. i live in a little hippiebubble.

i'm going to apply some pain relief to my now Medusa-shattered paradigms. i'll be back when the thinking stops hurting so much.



:hippie:

I just I feel I have earned the 'priviledge'. I grew up in a large family where my Dad was a white collar worker and my mother a blue collar worker. My dad was violent and authoritarian. My mom was sweet, gentle, smart, artistic and could fix almost anything. I have inherited her traits. My MOM could dress to the 'nines' and fix a leaking sink. When I first came out, I presented as butch. Mainly I think because no matter how smart or competent I was a women I couldn't get ahead or be taken seriously because I was a small frame, very young looking, and femme. I saw that with my Mom being passed up for promotion by a younger inexperienced males. I didn't want to re live what mother went through. Also I wanted permission to protect myself, by making myself unattractive to hetro males. However, I didn't id as butch and felt I was acting out a role. It was a very special butch that swept me off my feet 40yrs ago. He accepted me for who I was. He allowed me to grow into my own. Unfortunately, I outgrew him. I continue to discover myself everyday. I have struggled, planned, and worked to develop ME. I have lived long enough to know that priviledge is earned. Position is given.

I have come in to my own throughout a long metamorphsis. When I first came out 40+ years ago, I presented as butch. This was because it was the closest to what I id. I was raised in a large family with a white collared yankee Dad and a blue collared southern Mom. My Dad was paranoid schizophrenia, abusive, and alcoholic. My Mom was gentle, kind and nurturing. She also could fix anything from a broken washing machine to a child's toy. She appeared tombyish, but she was abused and supressed. I fought my own non hetro id because I reasoned my orientation was due to my poor male role model. So, I got married not once but twice. I have 2 bio children and 1 adopted child. I was only married a total of yrs. As a butch guys didn't hit on me, but I didn't feel comfortable. I met my first love a great butch who allowed me to grow into my skin. Unfortunately, I became aware that I had changed and he didn't unfortunately and we grew apart after 10yrs. I have had a few other longterm relationships but never lasting. I spend one day a week in pampering myself (what I call my femme day). I do feel I have earned my priviledge as a femme. I am capable of letting an interesting guy know I am interested.
If a straight guy hits on me, I am capable of letting him know I am not interested. The difference today then back when I was young, I don't have to qualify with my id. I am confident enough to say thanks but no thanks. I don't have to give a reason. I do believe priviledge is earned. It is not entitlement.

I have a whole heap of privlidges. I'm white, educated, with an educated family, I can get things that suit my culture (well, ish. enough) and tastes, I don't have kids so I can pick up and move anytime I like. I'm not bogged down by a morgage cause I don't swing that way so I I dont' have the added debt. I have a loan from school but a canauck loan is far better than an american one, at least they removed the provincial loan.

At 16 I had two set of parents that are all friends. I was shown that you can be friends with your ex's and how to do it - as it's important for people to get along if there's kids involved.

My parents have been pretty damn supportive of me. They didn't care I was gay.

We didn't have much money, and we lived in a group house, I had an extremely disturbed and abusive - severely abusive brother - and severely abusive boyfriends... but this thread isn't about how things don't count cause I've got exception tickets.

it's about how I know I've got priveldge. It's hard when talking about walking into shops though... inks gets occationally hassled/stared at because she looks like a big blonde germanic dyke, I get hassled a little more often for having big tits and white blonde hair.

I don't get harassed for my gender, she rarely ever gets sexual harassment. We are both in the store getting harassed. By the same people, usually. If someone harasses inks, I can gaurentee within 5 seconds that harassment will move on to me. Same the other way, though slightly less often. If I get really verbally harassed by an idiot, that idiot will probably then start harassing inks. We look like lesbians when together.

however, on my own I can keep my sexuality to myself in a minicab going home at 2am. Which is wise. minicabs can be dangerous things. I don't know how many times a minicab driver has tried picking me up. It's rather frightening. If I was visibly a dyke to them, I'd be way way more frightened.

There are times I'm very glad I'm cisgendered and not visibly gay. Makes traveling a lot easier. Makes going in and out of countries easier. Inks gets dirty looks and occational extra checks but not enough to bug her all that much. However she was really fucked off in Malaysia because people stared at her all the time, quite openly and we were CONSTANTLY harassed by people trying to talk to her about her tatoos and using that point to try and bully her into buying something/taking the piss/making shitty comments.

I didn't get that kind of harassment in maylaysia. I found people treated me with greater respect there. Her treatment was worse; mine was blissfully free of sexual harassment, mostly.

She has to hide her sexuality at work - or make it a complete non-issue and skips around questions. She works with very ill/terminally ill children and parents often ask her personal questions. she can normally suss out who's going to be ok with it, but the majority of people she can't take a risk with. Not that she'd be fired for being gay and out. It's against the law and it's a respected hospital, run by the NHS. So that wouldn't happen. But she'd find it difficult to talk to the parents in the way she needs to if they had problems with her.

I don't get asked personal questions.

Inks gets far more personal questions about herself than I do. People are more curious about her "presentation" in the mainstream world. Not rude, mostly, but just "you what?? sorry what did you just ask me?" usually from young people, not meaning harm but being pig stupid about stuff and expecting inki to educate them.

Re: my privilege
 

I think many femmes do have privilege, but I'm not sure it's exactly femme privilege. I'm trying to think what exactly femme privilege would be, and although I can think of many privileges shared by femmes which are not shared by many butches and transguys, I see these falling into two distinct categories: a very real privilege based on gender-expectation-conformity and passing privilege.

Here are my thoughts.

Gender-Expectation-Conformity Privilege

Insofar as a person's gender-presentation matches a culture's gender-expectation, that person has privilege. When I walk into a bathroom, people see a woman who looks like a woman. When I'm pulled over by the police, they see a woman who looks like a woman. When I go anywhere and do anything, people see a woman who looks like a woman. That is a privilege.

I also think this gender-expectation-conformity privilege extends to issues of being gay-bashed or harrassed by homophobic strangers. It's not usually a person's orientation that strangers notice - it's their gender presentation - unless a person is on the arm of another person of the same perceived gender or wearing items of clothing that scream, "I'm queeeeeeeeeeer." But

I don't consider it a "femme privilege," and here's why: Not all femmes have this privilege. Not all butches are without this privilege, not all non-femme queer or lesbian women are without this privilege.

It's a privilege that many femmes have, but to call it femme privilege seems to put some restrictions on the definition of what a femme is and is not - which subsequently seems to try to disqualify/discount/erase the femmeness of those who don't meet the gender-expectation-conforming requirement.

Furthermore, the term "femme privilege" used to mean "gender-expectation-conforming privilege" also implies restrictions on the definitions of butches, of non-b-f queer and lesbian women and even some transguys (and probably others).. Not every butch is mistaken for a man when she or he or hy enters a bathroom. Not every butch is interpreted as anything other than a gender-non-conforming woman. Not every non-femme lesbian or queer women is interpreted as anything other than a gender-non-conforming woman. To imply that femmes are the only ones who get this privilege - even in a strictly butch-femme culture is to imply that butches who receive the same privilege are somehow not butch or less butch.

Passing-Privilege

Is it a Privilege?

Passing as straight and/or cisgender is often cited as a femme privilege, but passing-privilege is such a mixed bag. I'm not sure it's exactly a privilege, though it sure can have some advantages. I know in the past I've seen some really great, highly informed discussions of whether or not passing is a privilege. I can't replicate those here, but my impression is that it's not the same type of privilege the type of privilege you get for being read for who you actually are. I am sure there are others here who can speak to this aspect with more authority than I can.

Who in our Community has Passing Privilege?

Again, as with Gender-Expectation-Conforming Privilege, conflating Passing-Privilege with "Femme Privilege" implies that this is a privilege unique to and inclusive of all femmes. There are femmes who do not pass for straight and/or cisgender even when they try real hard. There are butches who do pass for straight and/or cisgender. There are plenty of non-femme queer and lesbian women who pass for straight and/or cisgender.

Do femmes have privileges not covered by the above? I can't think of any others, but I'm a bit tired today. Are any of these privileges due to femmeness, or are they due to other traits shared with many other people?

Though I cannot see exactly how "femme privilege" exists, I do think many (the majority?) of femmes have the above-listed privileges. Am I being too stringent in my application? If these privileges applied to 80% of femmes, 60% of non-b-f queer and lesbian women and 20% of butches, would it still qualify as femme privilege?

I have met both butches and femmes in person and online who express dismay at their own lack of conformity to butch/femme gender-expression standards. (For example, how many butches wear make-up vs how many butches will admit they wear make-up in this community? How many butches wear women's underwear vs how many butches will admit they wear women's underwear in this community? How many femmes are daily read as lesbians vs how many femmes will admit they are read as lesbians in this community? How many femmes hate wearing dresses or makeup vs how many femmes will admit they hate wearing dresses or makeup within this community?

I just think calling this privilege "femme privilege" may re-enforce an external standard for internally-defined identities.

I'm open though - these just my tired thoughts for the moment.

I get this, Mrs. Strutt!

It's hard for me to hear "Oh, that's just your privilege" talking when I feel like it's something I didn't have control over.
Being white, a Femme, cisgendered, and the other myriad ways that there are privileges (situational and static) in my way of being feels negative sometimes.
I dont *want* to be told Im privileged for being white or cisgendered when I have a background that includes various class/size/ability struggles. It feels like all of my hardship gets negated by merely being white/cisgendered/Femme in B-F space/etc.
I do know on a core level that I have privileges even if I don't exert them in ugly ways or even if Im hyper aware of them. They're there. Sometimes I can see them, sometimes other people have to see them for me.

I can understand shying away from talking about how you grew up - especially if there is immediate judgment attached to you by other people when you talk about it. :)

The trap I have fallen into in the past is to imagine that the world is generally one way, and I am another. It has lead to a lot of insecurity and questioning about how I present and how I'm perceived. What's true for me is that my experience of the world, and how I am perceived in the world, has more to do with the specific environment than to a generalized expectation of how the world "is" or what I am supposed to look like. And, how I experience acceptance and privilege is directly proportionate to my ability to be overt about my identity as a lesbian (and sometimes as a Jew).

I know I am privileged in many ways. I am an educated, white, able-bodied, middle class woman who meets all outward expectations. As close as I get to other cultures and experiences in my work, I can never own them as mine. I understand the idea of "femme privilege" but it's more difficult to see this. At least, it seems complex to me. There is no down-side to me being seen as white--I am white. But, maybe if I had African ancestry, I would be ambivalent about "passing" and the associated privileges. Being femme (or, for me, really a lesbian), it is a mixed thing to be perceived in one way but know that I am another. It creates conflict and, for me, and sometimes it causes depression and paranoia. Any time I feel that I must hide my identity, I don't consider this a privilege. But, then again, I am not dealing with basic needs and rights. It is definitely a privilege to reasonably expect to be treated with dignity by people on the street, in stores, in bathrooms, and by public servants.

I am thinking out loud about this--.

I know that in the past, I've supported the idea that there is femme privilege, so this morning I decided to dig up the lists I made way back when (May, 2007) to see if anything on my list might fall outside of the gender-conforming privilege or passing privilege. Here is the list I made back then:

Oh, I'm gonna color-code these:

Passing Privilege
Gender-Conforming Privilege
Other / Possible Femme Privilege (at least within the Queer Context)


As a femme -

- I can cry without worrying that somebody will think I`m less feminine <--how would you categorize this?
- If I chose to be a housefemme, I wouldn`t face the same judgment a butch would
- I can choose to come out when I want to - on my terms and in the way I choose
- When I go through a breakup, people are more likely to assume I was the innocent victim
- If I talk about my chest - it`s not controversial. Nobody cringes (at least not at the idea of my having a chest)<-- how would you categorize this one?
- If I ask somebody for a tampon - I get a normal reaction <--how would you categorize this one?
- If I walk into the ladies room, I get no reaction
- If I sit down at Denny`s, the old man across the way doesn`t stare at me all through dinner due to my gender presentation
- I can walk down the street without worrying I`m going to be the target of a hate crime due to my gender presentation
- People don`t call me `sir` as a joke <-- how would you categorize this one?
- I can easily find clothes that fit my gender as well as my body
- If I approach (or PM) somebody, it`s usually not seen as predatory or creepy
- I see very few personal ads that say, `NO FEMMES!!!`
- People look at me and give me eye contact when I`m speaking with them
- I can go to the doctor and have the doctor see me and treat me as though I am my gender.
- I can carry a baby without worrying that it negates my perceived gender.
- I can wear a wide range of clothing without bringing my own gender into question or being accused of mocking other people`s gender
- Nobody calls my gender into question if I participate in activities/hobbies which are seen as feminine (i.e. knitting)
- I can spend time, money and attention on making myself look good - without it calling my gender into question
- I can be chatty and giggly without it bringing my gender into question
- I can wear makeup without calling my gender into question.
- I can wear shoes that make me taller without calling my gender into question
- I have the privilege of having titles and pronouns that fit me (she, ma`am, Ms.)
- Nobody has ever once laughed at or made fun of me for my gender presentation

Some of these were hard for me to categorize, but the one that stuck out to me today is that when a butch and a femme break up, it does seem like the sympathy of a community often goes with the femme, and the butch is seen as a dirty dog scoundrel - even if nobody knows the dirty details of the breakup. I'm not sure if other people have seen this or if my vantage point is skewed. I have seen the other scenario happen too - where the femme is painted with the scarlet letter or other implications occasionally.

Again, still open and thinking on this topic. It's a topic that intrigues me very much. I talked a lot earlier about how the gender-nonconforming and passing privileges do apply to people who are not femme and what those effects are - but I think the purple items above apply do apply to femmes and our close cousins - especially in the context of butch-femme culture and dynamics.

Nat, I've been thinking along much the same lines, but haven't time today to reply in any kind of depth : )
Later perhaps, and thanks for putting in the time and effort :)

I am very much looking forward to hearing your perspective! I have lots of feelings, opinions and questions, but trying to think about this is difficult because the subject shifts around so much when I try to think about it.

A bit on Passing Privilege
 

I was listening to an Outbeat Radio podcast called, "Coming out from Behind the Badge." This was a podcast about police officers both in and out of the closet, and they ended up talking about the negative side-effects of passing within the context of closeted officers. Because I feel that some of these issues do apply to passing privilege as experienced within this community, I went ahead and copied it down:

This is just one example of how passing is a mixed bag. The podcast did interview one female cop and one man who said he is effeminate and that it's always been assumed he was gay. The majority of the officers were masculine men who spent years in the closet, and people assumed they were straight based on their gender presentations. Although there are definitely differences between passing for a straight cisgender man and passing for a straight cisgender woman, I still think this is one of many examples illustrating the mixed bag of passing for straight.

Honestly these days, I'm sick of coming out of the closet. Every aquaintanceship or friendship I begin feels like a game of double-dutch. I'm trying to figure out exactly how and when and in what way to jump in there and say, "I'm a lesbian." If it's too soon, it's out of context. If it's too late, things start feeling dishonest because I know they are assuming I am straight. It's taxing. It doesn't feel like a privilege to feel like I either have to discuss my personal life and identity with people or have them interpret and speak to me me as a straight woman.

Also, as suggested in the quoted text, I don't think it's better to be exposed to homophobic remarks by people who assume I'm straight than to be the intentional target of homophobic language. If I had to choose one-for-one between the two, maybe being the direct target is worse in that it's more immediately threatening, but receiving these messages from people who assume I'm straight is more insidious, frequent and unnerving. I definitely begin to feel those messages are the true feelings of society, and overall that makes me feel less hopeful about humanity.

True but true
 

Hi - passing privilege is true but true. But I do get harrassed for being a femme too.

A butch woman I know wanted to know if I was really gay even though I had been coming to the same gay event for 6 months.

I am not super :yeahthat: girlie but a femme through and through.

Beyond the invisibility issue...
 

It feels weird for me, as a femme, to talk about "passing privilege." Passing as what? A straight women? Okay, if that's it, I have to question the privilege inherent in that. I guess from a narrow perspective, passing as straight in a homophobic world is a privilege.

But saying that passing as a straight woman is a privilege overall, is very questionable to me -- given the routine dangers that women face in a sexist, misogynistic world.

Heart

I don’t think of passing as straight as a privilege. True, no one cares when I enter a public restroom; no one hurls gay slurs at me when I’m walking around by myself. But I do get drunken idiots who assume I'm straight, and that they have a right to grab me. I have gotten cat calls and crude sexual comments that made me want to carry around a bat and curl up in a ball at the same time. As many femmes here probably have.

On the flip side (while I'm not Butch and would never pretend to know what that feels like) I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, past the wrong side of the tracks. Clerks would follow me around in stores, would ask me if I was in the right place, or even kick me out. My face still burns at those memories and I have a hard time talking about my past. Of being judge instantly as a deviant or “un-normal” because of the way I looked and dressed, and where I was from.

People see what they want to see. Whether it’s as someone who fits society "norms" or not, both sides have their share of bad and good.

My thoughts..
The other day, I had a .. shift or a moment.. when I felt deeply , how much I can never really experience or know, what it is like, to always steel oneself, before going to a public bathroom, and other such things that being clearly Butch, lends it self to.
I think that some of the thoughts i have had recently, concerning how there's no way to convey, how demoralizing and tiring it is, to constantly have to think in terms of how many steps are involved in any journey around town, something that is a recent fun thing in my life , due to my knees and other conditions.. That something I never noticed, because i didn't have to.. when I was younger .
Maybe it was some conversation with a Butch friend, I really don't know.. I just know that moment for me..happened.. and I got, that its not something I can ever fully comprehend..though I can and do empathize.
I thought I already understood it, but this emotion that passed through me, made it clear that I didn't.
But yes, is this a cisgendered privilege or a Femme one?
I tend to go with cisgendered.
I also am tending to think, that that is pretty much the privilege from which most others spring .
While I understand Heart's deep suspicion that being seen as female, in this society, is not quite all that privileged, even so, it is an "extra" in too many instances, and one in which everyone should be able to partake, not just those that are in conformity with, a general idea of what female looks like..
Within the queer context, its NOT such a good thing, and many people have already mentioned this. Yep,, I too tire of coming out over and over.. to groups people etc..
Actually , most of the masculine appearing woman I know, have also been hot on, and although they are usually pretty surprised, its a real example of the sexist way society operates..

DIVA, do you mind if I use your thoughts as a segueway for mine?

Your last paragraph above, comes closest to what's been on my mind about "privilege."

In my mind, privilege finds its roots in the idea that who we are, what we do, how we live, what systems of beliefs and values we own are at risk when it comes to whether we are accepted by others or choose to accept others into our lives. We (the general "we") experience privilege when we find ourselves granted the favor of social acceptance. But at what cost do we accept that privilege???

And that's just it - the cost factor - when it comes down to how I make decisions about whether or not I experience privilege or align myself with others who might believe similarly to how I might make sense of my world or the world at large or am willing to accept privilege in all its shape-shifting forms.

At what cost am I willing to experience privilege if the end-goal results in minimizing or marginalizing the identity, lifestyle or political gems that comprise who each of us are individually as people who long to find community that is willing to embrace us for who we are?

It's complicated, this thing called "privilege."

I want to say that I would be strong enough on my own and not be in need of being granted a particular construct of what privilege can mean. What I am trying to say is that, when privilege comes knocking at my "door" - there's always the risk that a person may have to compromise their views, their identity, their anything and sometimes I am not all that willing to compromise - even if it falls under the rubric of finding common interests that might facilate a larger-scaled social model of acceptance of that which is not all that common.


In other words, the term "Privilege" (to me) means a particular form of inequity and I'm not so sure how equitable privilege will ever be when it comes down to the cost of accepting privilege if it means that I will never be accepted unless I do "X, Y & Z" to earn favor (the privilege) to be me.

I'm not sure if I have conveyed all that is on my mind about privilege, but I remain open to dialogue and discussion of how we perceive what privilege means to each of us in this community.

~ALK
:candle::candle::candle:

re: queer anyway
 

There's another cost factor with femmes - not all femmes but those who wear makeup, dye our hair or buy product to manage our hair, keep up with style, shoes, hosiery, lingerie, etc. There are butches who might spend just as much on butch style, but I would guess makeup alone adds an expense to many a femme's gender presentation. (some butches also wear makeup too). There are issues of expensive surgeries and medical treatment among some butches and many transmen which would easily outstrip cost of beauty/style products, but then I don't know the numbers when it comes to femme cosmetic surgeries.

I would also think there is more pressure to look younger when one is femme, as age differences between butches and femmes often seem to go in the younger femme / older butch direction (or is this a misperception on my part? Perhaps a poll is necessary). So there might be more femme buying of anti-aging products.

Even when butches or transguys and femmes are around the same age, femmes may tend to feel that pressure as young butches and some transguys often look super young just because of the female-desinated-body masculine presentation can translate this way. I know I have been on one date where my date was interpreted by a flirty waitress as my high school aged son rather than my date - which I found rather irritating at the age of 28 (he was 23).

Nat kinda touched on this with an earlier post.

Age and Privilege in the Femme world.

Are younger Femmes more privileged in the B/F community than older Femmes? Or is that just an age thing in general?

I feel sexism gives them perceived privilege, Nat touched on it with the often older butch younger femme. I do think that it depends on the non femme person though, if they are valuing younger to better that's on them. I personally don't have and have not had an issue growing older as far as dating or fucking. I've enjoyed the company of younger femmes and older because when together and not around a *dating pool* of opportunities femmes bond and talk and share regardless of age. When in a group of Femmes it's really amazing how we all come together, you may have an occasional person who is not there for the bonding with femmes but more on the look out for a future dating prospect but I think those people weed themselves out quite early. So no I don't think they are more privileged per say though I do think they are more free to express themselves and have more ways to access and meet up other queers like themselves. I could be wrong though:|

Maybe I am alone in my thoughts...

I feel (for myself) that I have WAY more privilege now as an older femme (gonna be a crone soon) then a younger femme. I have EXPERIENCE.

I have no doubt misogyny plays heavy in our community. Older butches lusting after younger femmes. But my internal self esteem knows and believes... What I got going on with this body, mind and soul and the years I have lived and the scars I have endured...

I have even experienced reverse ageism. I would NEVER date a young butch. Hell NO! What would we possibly discuss? LOL - see. Poor younger butches are shunned by older femmes like me.

Give me a seasoned butch with history and the know how - and I am a very happy older femme.

The only privilege I feel a younger femme has over me, is time. She has more time to live her life and experience so many more years of love and love making than I do. She has the privilege of making babies if she should choose. She has the privilege of wearing what she wants, that I (my choice) as an older femme would not wear. She has the opportunities to change her career over and over again, whereas - I am 50, and I know the work place is not as interested in me, as perhaps they might be in someone younger.

Julie