^ thank you I appreciate that.

Hey Merlin -

It's not really that the forums are all that "cliquey" but I do think people on these boards are super protective of the Queer space and are pretty watchful for the glorification of dating straight women. (not saying you are doing that)
In years past, many Femmes (and Butches too!) have felt erased and devalued when folks talk about dating straight women as if it is the apex of all things hot. Especially in a space where Femmes want to be seen and appreciated (because let's face it, we're mostly invisible out in the world)

I do think there are cultural differences, especially in a microcasm such as this site where many folks have been having these discussions for years. Either way, I'm interested in what you have to say!

Medusa

Hi Merlin, and welcome to the site :rrose:

I think it's a question of defining "straight"...

Would a truly, 100% straight woman be interested in having a relationship with a butch? I think not.

It might be a matter of where you found her on her own personal growth curve. Most people (including myself) would have called me straight until I was in my 40s. For a variety of reasons, including some I wasn't even aware of myself for a long time, I pushed down my own sexuality and went along with what I was "supposed" to do and want.

It took me a long time to come out, even to myself.

Maybe that's true for them too...

I don't think this has anything to do with British prespectives vs. American ones. I haven't been here as long as some and even I've noticed that every once in a while a new member will come in and ask about straight women and butches. Seemed to happen every so often on the bf site too. Usually in those topics a lot of heteronormative stereotypes are thrown around that are usually more a result of people's exposure/inexposure to certain gender issues that really have nothing to do with nationality, since there have been Americans that have come in and talked about it too.

I don't see it as a specific fascination. People like who they like, and I don't think we can generalise about butches and straight women any more than any other queer group and straight people.

Hiya, Merlin

Nice to meet you. I'm an Irish expatriate. There are cultural differences, indeed.

Whatever you do, don't start talking about willets, thews or lallies. Someone's bound to call a sharpy.

I've never slept with a straight women. If they slept with me, they ain't.

Sláinte, Chazz :balloon:

Merlin, welcome to BFP! :)

Please don't think you are being picked on, a lot of people just read the title of a thread and then jump....it happens to all us! Keeps us on our toes!

Butches and straight women? It takes all kinds. For some, yes it may be easier to be seen with a Butch who passes, and some may not really be straight, just don't know they are queer yet?

Best to you and don't get discouraged here! :) I have visited London several times and communication is a bit different, but definitely workable and fun!

I cringe when I hear the word "straight woman" only because I'm sick of everyone assuming I am. I've heard it over, and over, "but you look straight." :| WTF does straight look like????

As far as butches with straight women, femmes with straight women, straight women with straight women, whatever floats your ducky! :rubberducky:

Welcome to BFP!

Here the bf community isn't as good as there,it's a really small community. Alot of it has been aided through the net. Due to the distance between cities bf folk live things are very fractured.

I've tried to date mainstream lesbians but they shun me. I guess my look and any whiff of testosterone puts them off.

For the record am fed up of being a joke to the mainstream lesbian community,it's amazing what homophobia is rife in the gay community xx

Hi Merlin,

I believe I saw someone else make this same suggestion to you that I am making now. Often times, it is best to check out the forum, read the various threads, and get a feel for the general terminology used, mentality, personalities etc. on the forum.

I've witnessed a few come charging in on forums before starting thread after thread without realizing that they may be speaking in ways that are offensive to the group at large and then they get their feelings hurt and are embarrassed because the group takes them to task. Slow down, give everyone an opportunity to get to know you, and you us.

Noted.

Like I said ice breaker.

I think the same or similar can be said for most places in the world. The bf community as well as other less visible communities in the LGBT spectrum have definitely benefited a lot from internet communication.

Since it came up at the end of this post as well, you might find that what many people (whether b/f or others within the spectrum who take interest in gender issues and how sexism and heteronormativity can be damaging) will take issue with the equation of masculinity with being male. For example, in your first post you ask whether "straight women" might like butches as having the "best of both worlds" with "male looks" and "female anatomy." I think that kind of equation of masculine = male is something some might react negatively to, and admit it got a bit of an eyeroll from me as well. A butch woman who sees masculinity as unique from male probably isn't going to consider her own masculinity a "male look." Same with others who might id as genderqueer, third gender or who generally consider sexuality and gender as fluid rather restricted to a specific set of binaries.

Like others have suggested, it might be best for you to do a bit of reading, not just on this forum but in general on gender issues within the queer spectrum. Not sure if you've read Judith Halberstam's Female Masculinity but a good briefer on the subject if you're interested.

The BF community is not that great here either, we find each other through the web here too.

It really is sad I agree.

I do have to say I have been to London 7 or 8 times, and never seen a Butch on the street (and I look lol), which I do in my wayyyy smaller city here in the US. No, I have not been to the Lesbian bar, was not sure what the Femme reception would be like. It's gotten better here over the past few years, but one never knows.

Yes, it becomes tiresome to be looked at as a freak by mainstream Lesbians. My "straight" friends seem to understand way better than my Gay friends.

I don't see the issue with us talking about straight people, I mean, they talk about us. Every young female star that matters is talking about going bi and its 'cool' now for straight men to snog. Talking about straight people is no.big.deal.

Statistically a homosexual woman is only 75% gay or more. This says to me that a straight woman can be 75% straight and still call herself a 100% straight woman, even if she's shagging dykes. I don't assume any straight woman who sleeps with a femme, boi or butch is secretly on the verge of coming out, sometimes they just want a bit of variety.

I was a straight girl once and slept with loads of boys, my first real 'lesbian' crush was with a bisexual girl who preferred boys. I ended up with a 60% lesbian and she ended up with a boy, yet I still wonder why straight women see lesbians as being under the radar.

As for the looking straight thing *sigh* What does that even mean?? I look straight to straight women, bisexual to straight men and bi/gay/queer/straight to lesbians and gay men. I figure people just see what they wanna see.

Oh. I would add to read this with an open mind! S/he has some really debatable things to say about FTM's and femmes.

I love the word "shag", makes me grin! ")

Some of us look like straight women and have been told so all our adult lives. I get told I look like I teach Sunday School. lol. No matter what I wear or do I look really feminine.

Now, I do get your point about how does gay or lesbian look! A lesbian must look like me, since I am one! lol But, its usually a shock to people and I have to tell them in weird awkward ways like "pass the salsa, I'm a Lesbian".

ps. no prob talking about straight people from me lol

http://aviscogitations.files.wordpre...er-lesbian.jpg :tease:

We can look any and every way!

But some of us get told we look straight non-stop. It is annoying. lol.

Maybe if I got the Bieber haircut and hat? thought at 47, it would probably look silly on me.

In a Queer Time and Place: Transgender Bodies and Subcultural Lives is a great read in addition to Female Masculinity. It clarifies her current thoughts on some of those issues. She writes an awesome analysis of Boys Don't Cry and other trans films.

True!

I am a Lesbian, but I do think some men are attractive.

Me too, particularly when I'm ovulating (tick, tock and all that..) They have to be very pretty to catch my eye however.

Never had any sort of clock counting down internally.
:cigar2: sorry if anyone has been offended ..

I am a stubborn ass Aries .. Gob goes into gear and brain still asleep.

Very very very very very!

It's called invisibility, and actually we wouldn't care, except it sucks.

It isn't discussing straight people that's a sore point, it's being constantly measured against them that is. Femmes do not want to be compared with straight women, many butches do not want to be compared with straight males. Femmes are frequently not taken seriously as lesbians and/or queers. There is a big invisibility factor at play and also there have been many discussions over the years where some butches seem to think straight women are the ultimate prize- which leads to a lot of sore feelings, particularly when you combine that with the invisibility issues.

Also, if you really want to know why straight people feel certain ways, I do think you need to ask them.

Welcome to the site Merlin, you seem like a nice person. We need to listen to you and understand you better and hopefully you will see some of the other points being raised here as well.

i was in a cafe in Pacifica a week or so ago and overheard three adult daughters talking to their mother about gay folks. Apparently they were comparing who they had gotten in contact with from the past via facebook. And one of them had turned out to be a dyke. The mom said she always knew that the girl would become a lesbian because of how she looked and went on to add that the girl's sister had always been the more attractive one.

The daughters did not take that on, but they began discussing the whole choice vs. born that way issue. The daughters all thought gay people "couldn't help it." They were trying to convice mom not to want to spit right after she said the word gay or lesbian. Mom was hilarious. She didn't care if it is a choice or if we are born gay. She thinks we are ugly and gross (we flaunt our sexuality), and even if we "can't help it," we are to be avoided because . . . well yuck.

The daughters were all middle aged. i don't think they lived a life any different from their mother's. One said she is a housewife. But attitudes have changed.

Anyway, part of the reason i tell this is that that's what happens to us -- those who pass. We get to hear some really fun stuff.

And while mainstream lesbians might ignore us or want us to behave more conventionally, i think they have our backs more than people like this mom, who i have no doubt would not raise her voice if the day ever came again when we were loaded onto trains. . . .

Where did you come up with this 75% gay number? I need way more information.

Oh my god, my house is like a library! My bf cries every time he walks through the door as we're supposed to be moving in together next year....

The best book I've found on this (so far, but there are a few) is Sexual Fluidity. It basically backs up what a few studies have found (since Kinsey) that very few homosexuals consider themselves 100%, though men and women score differently.

[QUOTE=HowSoonIsNow;335284]For me: Female masculinity is hot.

It's not about the *best of both worlds*--it is about being aware of one's desires--and that goes both ways for butches as well as the femmes...and all people, no?[/QUOTE

I throughly agree that female masculinity is hott. I believe that a feminine lesbian compliments her masculine lesbian partner. Im quite frankly all the feminine woman i need.:rrose:

:Im only invisible if I choose to be, I take myself seriously, when it counts most to me. People come to now this about me.
Im not an attention seeker, way to negative. I try not to invite negative in.Not saying that it doesnt happen. I've learned to show negative the way out. i dont feel that being a lesbian woman makes me a prize. im just me.:4femme:
.

There is so much I could say here, but it's late and I've already started over like 5 times. So here's an unorganized smattering:

Straight women can be fun as long as you don't fall in love with them and as long as they don't fall in love with you. At least, I've found them fun. :)

My partner has a long history of falling for straight women. She likes feminine women. Most of them have been straight. I'm the first femme she's been with. Heaven forbid we ever break up, but if we did, I'm pretty sure she'd keep dating femmes rather than going back to straight girls. I think it's pretty heart-wrenching to spend your life falling for women who will always be more interested in another gender than your own.

On a totally different note - I have known some butches who tend to measure/validate their masculinity by defining their partners as "straight" whether or not they actually are. As though straight women being interested in them gives them some sort of cachet. When I first came out, I dated a butch (briefly) who would have preferred to define me as straight in order to serve her own ego. It's hard to explain, but I've run into that attitude plenty.

Interesting question! I remember when I was in HS, I saw this short, very compact, masculine person I a letter jacket. She had a gaggle of girls around her. I Rember feeling very funny inside-I felt kind of anxious but didn't know why (I was 16). I asked who she was and my friend said, "oh that's Phil". I was fascinated by her. Still remember the moment I laid eyes on her having had no idea who or what she was. My journey to the femme I am today took me through my "straight" phase, my bi phase to the point where I could say honestly to myself, you were fascinated by Phil because you were always a lesbian attracted to butch women-coming out to myself just took a long time! That pull that I feel towards butch women I still can't explain: it just is! I personally think it is the ying and yang of it all, butches turn me on.

i have had a few encounters with "straight" women...but i wouldn't say that their experience with me made them no longer straight. i believe that orientation is defined by what gender you want to have as a partner. you know...those we choose to have actual relationships with. some people just like to experiment with sex...and when they do it doesn't mean that it changes how they identify.

I find discussions about "straight" women to be more often code for beauty, usually some dominant cultural interpretation of what beauty is. And it always seems like in these discussions butch ends up as male. Also, the whole affiliational paradigm is set in motion- we (as in a general we) are only worth what we can be affiliated with not who we are as individuals. And straight is at the top of the spectrum as being the most attractive or beautiful. When we all know, femmes are the most attractive in every way! Mainly, femme is just so much more than a physical state to me. There is a whole different carriage and psyche by femmes as far as I'm concerned. A very unique state of being.

Makes me nuts.

I ended up with a "straight" married woman for 21 years. She was separated from her husband at the time we met. We did fall in love and shared a healthy relationship together. As a lesbian couple. I did have fears that I was an "experiment" and had to deal with that and just took the risk. I have to admit that for the first 10 years of our relationship there were difficulties with straight men hitting on her frequently. We also did not live in a totally queer world. In fact, we were fairly closeted during that time period (we were both quite young when we met and coupled). Although, as we grew as people, she really found more of herself as on the butch spectrum in many ways (obviously, I did as well). One of the reasons we broke up. But, in most cases of friends that dated and fell for "straight" women, the story did not end well.

I guess I have to look at this in terms of individuals. I just can't put all straight women (or men for that matter) in one box. If I do that, I am doing what the rest of society does to me.

Something else that is bothering me are the continued references to butches in the masculine in terms of things like ego. Actually, ego bothers me in and of itself. Femmes appear to have some of it going on themselves I have experienced with butches. I don't view myself in terms of any kind of masculine ego construct. I know that some butches identify as male, but not all.

On the other hand, mention of the kind of degradation that some femmes have felt around this, I am saddened by the phenomena that are being discussed as it feels so negative toward the butch-femme dynamic as well as to the many types of queer relationships we have throughout our entire dynamic.

Seems as though a lot of good thoughts have been shared, although this thread had a bit of a rough start. One thing that struck me is that the initial post was very short, played off the thread title, and gave no context. I think that much of the roughness might have been avoided if the question had been fleshed out a bit more up front. This is not at all intended as a criticism of Merlin. We struggle with the intricacies of online communication frequently, and I think lack of context doesn't help.

I was with a straight woman for 3 years. I ID as transgender though and she saw me as a guy. Our relationship was that of girl/guy.