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dark_crystal 12-07-2018 01:09 PM

2020 Presidential Election
 
It's time.

First concern: Elizabeth Breunig (WaPo Opinion pages) tweeted "everyone saying 'coordinated attack from Bernieland [on Beto]' better be able to put their money where their mouth is" in response to a dude claiming people "view Beto as a threat to Sanders 2020 prospects."

I voted for both of them and i am not trying to discuss whether the claims of a coordinated attack are true or whether concerns about Beto's history and connections are valid...

i am asking "how do we not do this again?"

How do we not fracture in the face of fascism again?

If the answer is "the Dems have to not put up a capitalist/cop/warmonger again" what is the plan for when they inevitably do? When they put up Kamala Harris (cop), Eric Holder (cop), Joe Biden (warmonger, sexist).

Who is going to be the Jill Stein or the Green Party? Is there a DSA candidate?

I will start helping them now AND help Joe Ohnopleaseno Biden

kittygrrl 12-07-2018 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dark_crystal (Post 1233867)
It's time.

First concern: Elizabeth Breunig (WaPo Opinion pages) tweeted "everyone saying 'coordinated attack from Bernieland [on Beto]' better be able to put their money where their mouth is" in response to a dude claiming people "view Beto as a threat to Sanders 2020 prospects."

I voted for both of them and i am not trying to discuss whether the claims of a coordinated attack are true or whether concerns about Beto's history and connections are valid...

i am asking "how do we not do this again?"


How do we not fracture in the face of fascism again?

If the answer is "the Dems have to not put up a capitalist/cop/warmonger again" what is the plan for when they inevitably do? When they put up Kamala Harris (cop), Eric Holder (cop), Joe Biden (warmonger, sexist).

Who is going to be the Jill Stein or the Green Party? Is there a DSA candidate?

I will start helping them now AND help Joe Ohnopleaseno Biden

i have to admit i'm so desperate to not have another round of Trump i'd vote for(just about) anyone else...notwithstanding, your descriptions of current democratic candidates, make my stomach turn..i don't want a milder version of Trump..i want someone totally different..i don't want a Soviet lover(ie, Jill S) either..no,no god no!!...so i have (about) two years to figure it out..i will read this thread with interest and try to stay calm-thanks

Martina 12-07-2018 09:40 PM

I'll let them fight it out as long as they don't cheat. I would vote for Kamala, but not Corey Booker and certainly not Eric Fucking Holder, the man who wanted the right to assassinate US citizens on American soil. If I am healthy enough to campaign, I will campaign for Bernie. I will certainly donate to Bernie. I would also vote for Elizabeth Warren. Biden is better than Obama was, but he's a mainstream Dem. But if he wins the primary, I'd vote for him. If Hillary were to get the nomination this time, I would not vote for her again. I'd just leave it blank.

People who start attacking progressives can kiss my fat white ass. Trump needs to go, but it's on the Dems to field a candidate who is not a corporate pawn. BTW, Corey Booker is.

Edited to add: I would also like someone who can kick ass. Sweet little Bernie can. Kamala can. Warren can. I think Biden can. Holder can, but he's a piece of shit. Corey Booker has kissed way more ass than he has ever kicked.

Andrea 12-08-2018 08:30 AM

Bernie was my guy the last Presidential election but i reluctantly voted for Hillary. She lost my vote, and my respect, when she stated Monica Lewinsky wasn't a victim of abuse of power because she was an adult. :|

i waver on who i want to back in 2020 because i think we have so many good options, but i also know the bar is set really, really low.

Biden has the experience to hit the ground running and the relationships to help heal some of the destruction currently happening.

Warren may make a good President but she is also needed where she is.

Others i am watching are Castro, O'Rourke, and Bernie.

Oh how i miss Obama. :(

dark_crystal 12-08-2018 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina (Post 1233896)
I'll let them fight it out as long as they don't cheat. I would vote for Kamala, but not Corey Booker and certainly not Eric Fucking Holder, the man who wanted the right to assassinate US citizens on American soil. If I am healthy enough to campaign, I will campaign for Bernie. I will certainly donate to Bernie. I would also vote for Elizabeth Warren. Biden is better than Obama was, but he's a mainstream Dem. But if he wins the primary, I'd vote for him. If Hillary were to get the nomination this time, I would not vote for her again. I'd just leave it blank.

People who start attacking progressives can kiss my fat white ass. Trump needs to go, but it's on the Dems to field a candidate who is not a corporate pawn. BTW, Corey Booker is.

Edited to add: I would also like someone who can kick ass. Sweet little Bernie can. Kamala can. Warren can. I think Biden can. Holder can, but he's a piece of shit. Corey Booker has kissed way more ass than he has ever kicked.

Ass-kicking: YES. I liked Beto for Texas but he is way too cute and cuddly for POTUS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrea (Post 1233914)
Bernie was my guy the last Presidential election but i reluctantly voted for Hillary. She lost my vote, and my respect, when she stated Monica Lewinsky wasn't a victim of abuse of power because she was an adult. :|

i waver on who i want to back in 2020 because i think we have so many good options, but i also know the bar is set really, really low.

Biden has the experience to hit the ground running and the relationships to help heal some of the destruction currently happening.

Warren may make a good President but she is also needed where she is.

Others i am watching are Castro, O'Rourke, and Bernie.

Oh how i miss Obama. :(

YES. I have only voted for any Clinton two times (92 general, 16 general) out of six chances (92 primary, 92 general, 96 general, 12 primary, 16 primary, 16 general), so my expectations were always low, but she can fuck all the way off after that Lewinsky comment.

Orema 12-08-2018 02:16 PM

I think Hillary is more qualified than any other contenders and, if she runs again, she will most likely get my vote before anyone else ... particularly Biden. The best I have to say about Biden is that he’d be better than the current occupant in the WH.

As usual, I will vote for the Democratic nominee—whomever it is, even if i have to hold my nose while doing it, but my preference is a woman or a person of color.

Martina 12-08-2018 04:15 PM

Biden has a long track record so we can see a lot of mistakes made in different times, but if he had been the nominee in 2016, Trump would not be President. The thing about Biden to me is even though he did some of the same shit I can't forgive Bill Clinton for, because he is not the complete cynical power monger Bill and even Hillary could be, I can get past it. Biden is a relatively decent person, something no aware person could ever say about Bill Clinton.

For a mainstream Dem, Biden has done right by unions. Bill Clinton made his career out of destroying them. There's a world of difference there. When Bill started seeing that Hillary was losing working people, he basically said to her campaign, you can fool these folks. I have. The only President who has done more harm than Clinton in my lifetime is Reagan. And I include Trump and W. It's true that Biden participated in the harms done in the Clinton era, especially his support for mass incarceration. But I think he is redeemed (barely) by his support for unions and by the fact that he is not, at his core, a cynical asshole.

Martina 12-08-2018 04:23 PM

The Clintons and unions in Arkansas. From the beginning . . .
https://www.lawcha.org/2016/11/23/bi...-class-whites/

dark_crystal 12-08-2018 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orema (Post 1233954)
I think Hillary is more qualified than any other contenders and, if she runs again, she will most likely get my vote before anyone else ... particularly Biden. The best I have to say about Biden is that he’d be better than the current occupant in the WH.

As usual, I will vote for the Democratic nominee—whomever it is, even if i have to hold my nose while doing it, but my preference is a woman or a person of color.

I think that’s my issue with Biden— there has to be someone just as strong who isn’t yet another white man. I would support the hell out of Harris but I know there are progressives who don’t like her law-and-order vibe. She’s fierce, though, and ruthlessly articulate. She would be my first choice, then Warren.

Biden does have appeal for his long history, though. Like, any bombshells there are in his past were found long ago. We would know exactly what we were getting, with him.

Martina 12-09-2018 12:17 AM

Re Kamala, I would be so happy to have someone who cares about the rule of law after this law breaking motherfucker. I lived in California when she was AG. I loved her.

But my first choice is Bernie. I love him. He changed the world. He made the Dems take economic inequality seriously. Well that and losing to Trump. Dumb ass motherfuckers. Hillary's recent statement about immigration in Europe just showed who she is and always has been. She wants to placate the center right no matter what principle gets sacrificed. That's the Clinton MO. They don't get that it doesn't work anymore.

I have never cared about having a woman President. It doesn't mean much to me. I was glad that Obama was elected. I do think it mattered having a person of color in that office. Will it matter when a woman is elected? Some. But it depends on who. I don't like to think of what type of person felt empowered by Margaret Thatcher or is inspired by Teresa May.

dark_crystal 12-09-2018 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina (Post 1233998)
Re Kamala, I would be so happy to have someone who cares about the rule of law after this law breaking motherfucker. I lived in California when she was AG. I loved her.

But my first choice is Bernie. I love him. He changed the world. He made the Dems take economic inequality seriously. Well that and losing to Trump. Dumb ass motherfuckers. Hillary's recent statement about immigration in Europe just showed who she is and always has been. She wants to placate the center right no matter what principle gets sacrificed. That's the Clinton MO. They don't get that it doesn't work anymore.

I have never cared about having a woman President. It doesn't mean much to me. I was glad that Obama was elected. I do think it mattered having a person of color in that office. Will it matter when a woman is elected? Some. But it depends on who. I don't like to think of what type of person felt empowered by Margaret Thatcher or is inspired by Teresa May.

I would love for Bernie to get the nomination. I think that would be a high-energy, very positive, very clear campaign. I say "clear" because the choice voters would be making would be very sharply defined. Would definitely be an end to the "basically-Republican-except-not-bigoted" vibe that Clinton went with-- and which i think would be a temptation for Biden and Harris.

And here i have to indict myself because part of the appeal of a Bernie campaign, to me, is that he is a white man. He will be painted as a Socialist, and Socialism is scary, and having those proposals delivered by a white man makes them less scary to other white men. That represents a huge opportunity to have a national conversation about very bold ideas, and it is just a fact that such proposals will be taken more seriously coming from a white man.

Of course, all that would happen then is that the Republicans will try to pull his white card by dog-whistling Antisemitism.

The piece i was looking at when i made the OP was Five Thirty-eight: Who’s Behaving Like A 2020 Presidential Candidate

It has a list of people who are "behaving like" they plan to run, with 7 "behaviors" indicated and a score based on who has done them.

These are the indicators:

VISITED IOWA
VISITED N.H.
VISITED S.C.
BOOK
POLL
MAGAZINE PROFILE
CAMPAIGNED

Bernie is the only one who has hit all 7, then Biden with 6, then Booker/Bullock/Castro, etc with 5

I haven't done a deep dive on either Castro, but here in Texas they are seen as Mexican Betos. Bullock seems ok but not exciting.

Martina 12-09-2018 09:17 AM

I saw Rahm Emanuel on David Axelrod's show last night. I would bet money he's running. He's a fighter, but a mainstream Dem with a questionable record of success. If he runs, you will really see the Republicans dog-whistling anti-Semitism.

dark_crystal 12-09-2018 09:35 AM

The question in my original post was about a plan B in case the Democrats make a disappointing choice that causes progressives to peel off again.

Rather than screaming at each other about whether we should or should not be supporting the lesser of two evils, like last time, i want to figure out what steps can be taken preemptively so that there is a structure that could support a breakaway movement that would be believably viable to the Democratic base.

It was messy last time-- some people supported Stein and some people supported a Bernie write-in and the fracture itself seemed fractured. The plan B was improvised and there was no time to build momentum underneath it by the time we realized we needed one.

The DSA has been doing amazing things here in Houston-- they were very visible in Harvey relief and there is considerable goodwill from that.

Can they support a Presidential campaign? Do they want to? Their model is very bottom-up. If Sanders is shut out of the nomination and decides to run as an Independent, can the DSA provide infrastructure for that?

The word "President" is not mentioned on their Electoral committee page.

Martina 12-09-2018 09:45 AM

Now that would be an interesting election.

Truly I think any non-Clinton Democrat will beat Trump. Not everyone believes that, but I do. I think the Dems would have to make an egregious choice to mobilize progressives enough for your scenario. But I don't put it past them.

I know Hillary is considering a run. Given the progressive victories in the midterm, I just can't imagine the Dems would be stupid enough to consider her. There was a big gasp after she made that comment about European immigrants. I think people know she's part of the past.

Biden is the most likely mainstream Dem, and because of his union politics, I think he is marginally palatable to the left. I could be wrong.

MsTinkerbelly 12-09-2018 10:00 AM

I watched Senator Amy Klobuchar on “The Rachael Maddow show” recently; she is considering a campaign, and figures that the field of likely candidates will be more than 20 to start.

I’m with Martina on how outstanding a President Kamala Harris would make; she is strong and confident and knows the law. She was an excellent AG for California and would be someone I would have faith in to run this country. Hillary Clinton? Fuck Hillary Clinton and the horse she road in on. She was unable to win before because she’s an arrogant white elitist, with no concept of what middle America (or real people) cares about.

Bernie? You know, I STILL think Bernie is a great Senator, but I don’t think he is President material. In any case, (and it shows my prejudice) NO MORE OLD WHITE MEN!!! :praying:

MsTinkerbelly 12-09-2018 10:03 AM

Whoops! I didn’t see the direction you were leading the discussion in...sorry!

dark_crystal 12-09-2018 10:04 AM

Emmanuel is being roasted on twitter today bc he said Trump was a good politician in the Axelrod interview.

I would have voted for Biden with stars in my eyes the night he did that interview with Colbert where they discussed the loss of his son.

dark_crystal 12-09-2018 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly (Post 1234021)
Whoops! I didn’t see the direction you were leading the discussion in...sorry!

You’re cool! That q is not the thread topic, just the concern that prompted me to start the thread

Martina 12-09-2018 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dark_crystal (Post 1234022)

I would have voted for Biden with stars in my eyes the night he did that interview with Colbert where they discussed the loss of his son.

Some of the reason I have a soft spot for Biden may be that his son died of the same disease that killed my mother: glioblastoma. It's a horrible disease, almost 100% fatal. My mom lived a little longer than his son did. They both had the average trajectory of about a year and a half. Treatment, a few months of remission that give you hope, and the inevitable unbeatable recurrence. It's brutal. As I am sure you know, McCain also passed away from it. I feel something of a bond with people who've lost family members to it.

Martina 12-09-2018 10:46 PM

What do you think of Bloomberg as the Democratic candidate?

http://www.politico.com/amp/story/20...ocrats-1048159

I can't imagine him getting through the primaries, but if he did, his candidacy might be one that would provoke the "dark_crystal scenario."


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