Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch/Femme Bottoms
 

Hi everybody!!

I am opening this thread to discuss a topic that keeps getting brought up in some form or fashion throughout various threads.

I am a trans/submissive/bottom/guy, that is in his second Femme led relationship. My first started over 20 years ago. I left that relationship without any instincts. I moved forward topping every aspect of my life and destroyed my own trustful nature. I got therapy and here I am.

The great thing about our community is we have all participated in evolving gender identity in our own way. This is why the spectrum is so wide.

I keep running into those "less than" conversations about energy exchange and how there seems to be a stigma with this type of intimate bond. My experience so far has been mostly from a corner watching others. I have been able to dodge the "belittle me bullet" from outsiders but it is just a matter of time before somebody addresses me as "less than" because of my relationship style. Sometimes I think it all revolves around misogyny and maybe even some mysandry. Any thoughts on this particular subject?? Any other subjects/experiences that will add value would be greatly appreciated!

Of course it is rooted in misogyny. I guess we could give it a slice of misandry too.

Here is the notions that seems popular.

Butch = Masculine
Masculine = Male
Male = Strong and Dominant
Femme = Feminine
Feminine = Female
Female = Submissive and Weak

So when we don't ascribe to that ridiculous set of notions? We may encounter some bewilderment, ridicule, and yes...even shunning.

I am amazed that I consider myself to be surrounded by a *pro gender diversity* crowd, yet the binary seems suffocating at times.

Why is this? Because it is so deeply ingrained by socialization that it's pervasive.

Pervasive enough to equate what my behind doors business is to my gender id. I know for me it inhibits my interaction with some people in real time and on the websites. It is hard to sit back and watch a butch/trans/femme disrespect my relationship or my Ms because they view it as icky or "less than" because the roles are not on the binary their mind/experience had created .

I am sad that it inhibits your interactions with others, because others are missing out on some amazing people. Of course I am biased because I spend time with you both.

With that said it hurts me too, because you guys are my family. The problem IS pervasive when a Femme Daddy is considered *scary* or *angry* or when you are negated as weak because of your submissive side. I think you're one of the strongest people I know, and your Ms. is one of the best people I know.

What is the right answer? I feel like it is unfair that you have to inhibit your interactions OR you have to educate. Over and over again. That seems tiresome.

:flowers: don't be sad...ever!!!!

For me, entering into my relationship was almost offensive to some people and I couldn't figure out why. I had people tell me to my voice, "i don't think You are a submissive bottom". I also had people enter my space and bash me anonymously...it was weird. My experience is that sometimes people just wanna believe what they wanna believe. My life has been more strategic than that. I didn't just wake up one day feeling this way.

I think the right answer is relative, just like education/knowledge. It would be nice to know that our community here and out there has the head space to work on the conscious concept of the "less than" idea and how they participate in reversing this kind of thinking. It pertains to all of us in some form or fashion.

This is so interesting and lots on my mind with similar topic. Thank you for bring it up. I'm going to subscribe and come back later.

I admire you for starting this thread.......and I just think you are yet another dear piece of our Community Puzzle.....

And there you have it. :thumbsup:

i've run into this since my first days out in the local kink community here in SC, over 10 years ago. The whole "she is sooooo not a top" judgmental crowd, who then whine about being judged by nillas. :explode:

Interestingly, it's been directed at bio-female bottoms/subs/slaves just as often as i've heard it in regards to male or butch tops/doms/owners....actually, now that i think about it, i've heard it more often at female bottoms than anyone else, but that's probably only because around here there aren't that many male or butch bottoms who are active in the groups.

i just know i dislike hearing the judgement, no matter who it's directed at. And yes, i partook of the judgements myself at first, but my Leather Mama taught me long ago that one never knows the dynamics involved in a relationship unless you're privy to it, so best keep your judgements to yourself.

Who am i to say who is or isn't anything??

Thanks Ezee-
Your support and participation is very appreciated by me. I get the whole male dominance thing and how it has stemmed itself in our fabric as we all explore our identities. I know what bugs me is that how it comes to be that we as a community have allowed this type of thinking to further itself by invading our community and how we approach it to help reverse it. For me it comes in the form of sticking up for myself and what I choose for myself. Calling out my friends and sometimes people that aren't my friends but bystanders.

i have encountered some similar responses from people because, as a femme, i sometimes serve Femme Tops. i have not had anyone question whether i am truly a submissive, but they have tried to cast doubt on my femmeness or just been disrespectful. It's not the same, i know. But i do relate to what you are writing about.

Re butch bottoms/submissives, i do have a comment. This might sound like i am bragging. i don't mean to be -- although i am very proud of my Sir. (And my Ma'am, too!) i just want to make a point.

One of the Dominants i serve, a butch, primarily ID's as a submissive -- majordomo type. Sir is also a Dominant to me and a Daddy to Her femme partner (my other Dominant). Actually She is not currently in a relationship in which She is submissive, but i am sure She does not rule the possibility out.

The point is that She has served happily, and, i am sure, bottomed gleefully.

Does my Dominant have power? OH MY GOD, yes! Is she butch? OH, GOD, YES! It makes me weak in the knees to pick up the phone and hear that deep, commanding voice.

Anyone who thinks butches who bottom or serve are somehow "less than" would change their minds is a flash if they spent time any time with Her.

Thanks for the thread.
------

I appreciate this conversation. Thank you.

Misogny has a lot to do with it.... but also, some individuals are afraid of change or afraid of things that are done differently than what they consider "the norm". They attempt to force their beliefs on us, or scorn us for not being "normal"... maybe, inside they want to explore your type of relationship style, but are afraid of also being perceived as "less than"...so they quietly dream about it, but don't act on it, instead they continue to scorn those that do act on their inner self.

You talk of our own personal evolution of our gender identity...
I agree that there is a stigma about your preferred type of bond. Mostly, (coming from a "me & I" place), I think stigmas come about because the person imposing the stigma has fears, inhibitions, lack of education, self esteem issues, issues with how they were raised to believe, or are too self absorbed to understand that their way is not the only or best way to live. Sometimes, the stigma around your type of bond is directed at both the sub and top because those imposing the stigma try to force their perceptions & beliefs...or interject their fears without personally knowing the couple in question. Sadly, the stigma becomes a personal attack like what you describe as a bullet. I admire your strength to dodge that bullet.


(Please note... this is hard for me to explain, but I will try anyway...I use the term submissive in a different definition than you are describing... to me, my submissive means I "give in" unwillingly to someone I really don't want to be with, or to do something with them that they know I don't like or is a boundary of mine, but they make me submit anyway because "it's their way or nothing". In the past, I've submitted to save my little cousin and sister from harm...or I've submitted to "get it over with and them off of me". To me there are two different ways of being submissive; what I describe here, which holds a negative feeling for me... and the submissive energy you and others enjoy, which is a very positive energy. )

I don't consider myself a Femme Top... or a Femme Bottom... After being single for many years, I haven't been with anyone that I could explore being Femme Top with. I don't know how I feel about that, if I were given the chance. I'm still evolving...but, I've recently accepted my evolution as a Femme Middle (my own term, after struggling with my ID and perceptions of what other's think I am/should be). I am very comfortable with being Femme Middle because it gives me a sense of security I've never had. I have heard the term Femme Switch...this does not fit me either and isn't what I mean by Femme Middle.

I am far from weak and grit my teeth when it is implied that I am weak or "less than" or that I should take "second fiddle" to my partner of choice because they perceive themselves - or someone else perceives them - to be "the leader" of our relationship. I do not like to be submissive because of YEARS of being made to submit in a very negative way. Although, I have often been made to feel less than. Especially when I first came out and ID'd as Femme Bottom (because I didn't know about other ID's or how to evolve with my own)?

Maybe being made to feel less than is one reason why I reject being the positive submissive? (has anyone else ever felt that way?) I get very "hot under the collar" when I am treated like I'm less than or given less respect because I may possibly be submissive. It's a very big trigger point for me. Maybe because I was forced to be submissive as a child and young adult? Lately though, I've become very content with "owing" what makes me Femme Middle - a very sassy Femme Middle - and I finally take pride in "coming into my own". Femme Middle means something very special to me. I'm not sure if I could be Femme Top... but do respect and admire those that are, as well as their partners. I have so little experience with a partner - after being single for the most part since 1996 - that it's hard for me to explore my gender and preferences, or to judge what I am comfortable with or not. I do have boundaries, mostly to do with PTSD. I have wondered if I am Stone Femme? But for now, Femme Middle fits me very well.

I am very happy for you that you have found an intimate bond that you can completely enjoy and give yourself to. By what I describe above, I don't want you to think I would EVER belittle you in any way. I'm just having trouble finding my words is all.

Maybe one day, I will find a partner that I will willingly and without inhibitions be submissive to? Your positive kind of submissive energy. Maybe they will enjoy my being Femme Middle and I can explore being submissive without fear of being judged or "put into a little box" of their description of Femme? Maybe, if we both feel safe doing so, they won't mind me exploring being Femme Top? I certainly enjoy "giving" - submitting to a partner is a form of giving, as well as giving them specific attentions. I'm not sure about being in a Femme Led Relationship...although I am very sassy and independent, however it plays out, it must be a two way energy and relationship and NO "giving in" just because I felt I had to. I would enjoy finding a partner that would enjoy my gender and energy in the way you so affectionately describe. I will always continue to reject stigmas, bullets and little gray boxes with my sassy Femme way. Someone else's fears do not need to hurt me or become my own.

Being placed in someone's little gray box with their forced views written all over the walls, will make me fight like a caged wild Tigress. I hate little gray boxes and strongly disagree with/push away those that force me into their box.

There are times when I feel Top... but don't act on it because I am very happy being Femme Middle.


PS... I am Femme... but many of my likes and hobbies are considered "too masculine" for me. Especially with me liking all things mechanical and working in the construction field as a Forman and Boss for many years. I get very pissed at being forced into the a box filled with misogyny about "femme's shouldn't do that", "femme's can't do that because they will complain about breaking nails", "that's not how I like my Femmes, they should be frilly and fru fru", etc etc... It's the kind of person that forces me into that misogynistic box that I would LOVE to go Femme Top on!! I am Femme, hear me ROAR!

Nice thoughts ravfem-

Well from my knees experience none of the Doms of any gender or slaves I have met have treated me or any person they came into contact this way. I am talking about the queer butch femme community that does not participate in our dynamic. When I am with my Ms at a leather event I am boy and gender doesnt matter.

I have a hard time agreeing with you on the point that femme slaves/subs/bottoms and trans/butch Tops are scrutinized as often as a trans/butch bottoms and the Femme/Female Tops that lead them. I think that femme/female slaves/subs/bottoms and their trans/butch Tops/Daddys are much more widely accepted amoungst the masses.

I very much agree... speaking from my personal experiences only. And may be another reason why I reject being a femme sub/bottom? However, I wouldn't reject exploring what it would be like to enjoy a dynamic with a FTM/Butch bottom...

From my observation, Butch or Trans Dominants and their butch or trans submissives get less shit than Femme Dominants and their butch or trans submissives. Makes sense. In the former case, at least half of the expected hierarchy is in place.

Has that already been said? If so, i apologize. Tired tonight.

Hi Massive and thank you for your participation.
I really respect that your space is so well rounded and that you so fiercely understand the struggle a trans/butch submissive/slave/bottom and their Femme Tops/Daddys encounter in this dynamic. When you were submitting/bottoming did you ever experience another butch (not in BDSM) disrespect your Ms? As a bottom have you ever noticed how there seems to be forming a pattern of submissives using a victim stance to leave/dismiss a relationship?

Sweet? I don't think being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult equates to submissive as it pertains to this conversation.

I totally love your posts and what you have to say, but it is precisely this kind of thing that perpetuates false information about what a sub/boi actually IS.

It is dangerous to blur the line, don't you think?