Butch/Butch Theory
 

:grindevil:

Alright so here goes:

The first focus I would like to make is the butch/butch dynamic and how appealing it is to me and my personal preference. I do however, understand that I cannot and will not satisfy everyone on this topic but it is definately something that I want to put out here. At times, I wonder to myself being a member of the gay community why certain dynamics are shunned by our own. This will be a pill that is continuously hard to swallow. I understand individuals and their own preferences...But, Im not getting the narrow paths that some people tend to follow.
This isn't mainstream-sometimes we dont fit in-no matter what label/terminology is used. I totally get that. But, why is the hate continuing? (I have my own answers).

What does it mean for a butch to desire another butch? How is butch desire expressed? These are only a few questions that I have been asked recently. And I am willing to explain my theory on this.

Must opposites always attract? I do not think always. I do believe that we can be one in the same on all levels and still have an attraction. Does anyone else feel me on this?

Just to add to this little section of my world and to answer a few more questions I will continue with this:

To many people Im a "usual suspect" because i do not date femmes. Sometimes, it is looked upon as in me secretely hating them. THIS IS NOT the case. But, yet im deemed the ultimate threat. Because the butch/butch dynamic negates the binary oppositions and hence is threatening to most. -sighs-

One answer to the question: Who really agrees with the butch/butch dynamic? One who admits it.

Ok, so in a nutshell here is my butch haircut,stance,personality,preference and anything else you would like to claim as such. YES, I adore the butch/butch relationship dynamic and proudly I will continue to wear it.

Anyone else?
Comments?
Perspectives?


:harley:

Yes, this is a repost.. I also have this thread posted as Butch/butch experiment on the other site.. Im trying to reach out to as many people as possible...!!! So thanks everyone!

Personally, butch/butch is hawt and I've never quite understood why some people are adverse to it.

Then again, I am a "whatever-it-takes, even-if-that-means-licking-your-left-elbow-on-a-blue-moon-odd-month-tuesday". :tongue::perv:

You have to live your life and find joy in it. If its butch/butch that works for you, I say have at it! :thumbsup:

Christie

I have to agree with everyone who has posted so far.

My town is similar to that G describes. You see Butches with Butches alot.

Snouzepoo?

Avocado Christie, I agree wholeheatedly on all points, though our fetishizing of B/B likely makes us pretty non-PC.

Death, you mention people feeling threatened by Butches who want to date Butches. I think people are naturally inclined to be threatened by something (anything).

I get the allure of dating someone you have tons in common with. I learned in Sociology in college that the more a couple has in common, the more likely it is that they will stay together.

I'm sorry that you feel misunderstood and I totally get that...most regular Lesbians in my town think I am absolutely out on the lunatic fringe somewhere for dressing like I do and liking Butches.

Maybe the power of Butch is what is threatening? I don't know. Interesting thread.

HA! You are the first to call me by my pronoun!!! :cheer::cheer:

I know exactly what you mean about being on the lunatic fringe for being a feminine woman and liking butches! I lived there for the first 36 years of my life and I can tell you that meeting you and the TN gang was probably the most BF couples outside of Pride that I have ever seen at one time!

The bright side is that at least you have a community there.

To your question of the power of Butch being threatening, I don't think that's it - I tend to agree with your analysis of being attracted to the familiar.

Great thread.
 

I think it's a problem of internalized homophobia. If we aren't fetishizing it (and it is squicking us out) this is likely the reason. Which is curious, because of who we are. Homophobia is so systemic that it would be over-reaching to assume we are exempt from experiencing it.

I have to share here, if I am honest, that the butch/butch dynamic was something I spent real work getting to be okay with (a previous partner was equally enamored of butches as with femmes). This bothered me. I had to think about why. I had to explore it and work it out.

Eventually, my baseline beliefs were able to overthrow my reflexive ones. I want for all of us to experience not just equality around whom we naturally love, but a sense of celebration.

And that's where I am today.

Many MANY thanks to you grrls/guys that have shed some light on this bois mad rant :) :boxers: I appreciate the support and the real talk here!!! I think its great to be openminded and love who it is we so desire to.

Wondering
 

Has anyone experienced a butch/butch relationship where there was BF Community social pressure felt by one of you to "become more feminine"... or did others seem to question your butchness for having this preference?

Interesting
 

I think this is an interesting topic, so thank you for bringing it up.
I really think love is love, and I have always been curious on this one thought:
This is my own opinion. I wondered if 2 people were stranded on an island with no contact or communication with anyone other than the one they are stuck with and who haveno chance of being rescued then I wondered if those 2 people would fall in love .
I think that in that type of situation where 2 people never thought that the other persons identity was ever attractive all of a sudden find them to be the most attractive person they ever saw.
I have never thought that boi's were attractive at all. I have never been in any kind of relationship with another boi , butch, or andro even bc I'm just not that boi. I believe that love is love and who ever you find attractive and love is amazing ! I would think that the intimacy with 2 butches would be very very intence.
I wondered if since I do not think butches are attractive and would not be with one, if maybe I were to be stuck in a stranded place with no hopes of rescue if I would fall in love with another boi???? I think I would.
I think love is a beautiful thing no matter who one shares it with.
I have had several butches that only desire butches tell me that I am nice looking and etc... I'm flattered by that , just as I am flattered if a femme, or whoever would say it.

-RNguy

Two points:

1. I agree with you wholeheartedly that some are threatened by the power of (the) butch. I think it's the dichotomy that gets folks' boxers and panties in big ole bunches over it.

2. Schnoodle?

I had the opposite dynamic that I found I had to work on. For me, I just could not wrap my mind around the Femme/Femme dynamic. In my mind, it was so twisted and tangled with the images shown by straight porn of "lesbians" together that I think I rejected the concept as a whole.

It's my nature to say "whatever floats your boat" so I wasn't completely oppositional to the dynamic....just more along the lines of "why?" Since it's the hotness of the butch that revs my engine, I couldn't grasp why everyone didn't feel the pull towards them as I did. Eventually, I came to my senses and saw what others who do enjoy that dynamic see. I still don't feel it's for me, but my horizon was definitely broadened. :)

Interesting thought.

I can only theorize what would happen if I was stranded with another butch with no hope of ever being rescued or whatever. Assuming we got along and all, I would think that I would grow to love the other butch. Would I fall in love with them - well, I guess I'm not really sure what the difference would be between loving the butch and being in love with the butch. Splitting hairs - maybe. I imagine that we aould be involved in a sexual relationship. We both have needs and in extreme situations we sometimes do what normally would not be our preference. Happens all the time in situations where a bunch of men or women are forced together - in jails for instance.

So yeah, I would probably - hopefully - love the butch. Yeah, we would probably have sex. But again, this is an extreme situation. If the same butch and I were friends in the real world, would those same feelings and behaviors occur. For me, I would think not.

hmn, hard to explain.

for a long time my only exposure to dykedom was through amutual friend who was very much part of the seattle butch/butch leather scene, a long time ago. For the longest time is really affected how I percieved being a dyke. I couldn't be one. I wasn't a butch, nor was I that kind of leather. And as far as I knew, at that point, that's was dykes were.

plus when I was in their company, they did nothing but say dismissive and hideous things about femmes. Some of them occationally dated femmes but their attitude was "bit of fluff on the side."

So I grew from 18 - 25, thinking that the only way to be taken seriously was to be masculine and that butch-butch were so into masculinity, and hated femininity so much (probably due to the phase they had to go through of rejection for themselves), that femmes were pretty much loathed.

So I pretty much thought that butch/butch would hate me for my femininity, without even knowing me. But, there is a similarity in butch/butch as there is in gay male men/men communities. Many of them do hate women and want nothing to do with females. Thankfully, a lot of them don't. And the same with butch/butch.

So when I'm introduced to a butch/butch couple when I'm out, the first thing that skidds across my brain is "how quickly are they going to ignore me/dismiss me because I don't matter."

sometimes I'm proved wrong and that makes me happy. I can have good conversation with good people. And I've made some great, fun friendships. But sometimes, unfortunately, I'm right. And instead of friendship I get the bland dismissal look of "oh. femme. *blank*" Usually because they themselves make assumptions about me and about femininity.

I've been privy to conversation about things like "oh do we have to bring a femme along? she's just going to whine, complain about her feet hurting and demand attention..." when one of them says that they are bringing X to an after-party or whatever. Either forgetting I'm there or just being an asshole.

that said, one of the politest, loveliest butches was one that was with another butch and sincerely helped me when everyone else flaked out.

I'm just scared of wierd misogyny. I'm a bit wary about gay men in the same way when I meet them because of the same issue.

Having worked so hard and waited so long to pursue the type of individual I would truly desire, I can't begin to judge anyone else for their preferences. I'm a pretty accepting, open person, anyway. I could probably fall in love with you (any of you) if you reveal yourself to me. I am deeply touched by authenticity, in all its forms. But, I've learned that love isn't always love, at least for me. I definitely have sexual preferences and proclivities. If you're a woman, that's great. If you have masculine qualities, that's perfect. I'm absolutely certain that my kind of desire grosses other people out. So, butch on butch doesn't perplex me, nor does femme on femme. Or just about anything else that's legal. We've come too far to require one another to justify who we are and how we're wired.

I agree with the internalized homophobia angle that e presented. I think it applies to both butch/butch and femme/femme coupling, but it seems the femme/femme dynamic can more often be seen as arousing in the same way that hetero men often think of two women together, as if they are hot and sexy but incomplete in a way that makes it easy to fantasize sliding in there as a man or a butch and completing the image.

Butch/butch, however, is more often seen as complete, just as gay male couples are, and not inviting that idea of a masculine person to complete the image (not that no one ever fantasizes about being a third with two men or two butches, but that it's not as common to hear about or see, and I think more often the locus of interaction is projected to be the third party rather than the first two).

It's yet another manifestation of misogyny, I think, just as I think all homophobia is when cut to its core.

If sex and gender are not the same (as we all pretty much agree on after numerous break-downs of it all)

Then, seems to me, butch on butch wouldn't necessarily be a matter of homosexuality but rather homogenderality

I'm sexually attracted to males and females and folks who don't ID as either...but there are some genders I have no interest in dating


Could Be A Matlock Theory Too Though,
Dylan

hmn. dunno. I have a friend here for the past 7 years, she's a butch woman, drag king, ID's as a butch woman and dates a transqueer boy - he self ID's as an xxboy. They are different genders. but they still consider themselves a butch/butch couple (in the loosest of terms). They go to HardOn, sex club for gay men that include other queers and the times I've gone, it's been mostly maculine/masculine in terms of dyke/trans/genderqueer/men/cismen in there. So not the *same/homo* genders...

I was thinking about it further today. most of the couples who are masculine/masculine in my circle of friends aren't strictly butch/butch. It's trans/trans, butch/trans, trans/cisman, butch/cisman, butch/genderqueer. I don't think I know a butch/butch couple... I don't think I've met one since toronto (where I was also hugely ignored/dismissed for being feminine).

[eye ball roll self realisation] I obviously have a chip about this.[/eye ball roll self realisation]

I don't think homophobia is restricted to a traditional understanding of homosexuality. I think sometimes people are suspicious of or uncomfortable around hetero couples when the man is particularly feminine or the woman is particularly masculine or both. It's not just about sex, not just about gender identity, not just about presentation, and it does seem to be largely situational.

Take a femme/femme couple. Some groups or communities would tend toward viewing this as arousing; others would tend toward squicky. Balance is reached when it's not noticed as anything out of the ordinary, instead of either fetishized or rejected as being different.

right

So, even though there may be crosses of sex...genders are somewhat similar (if we're using gender loosely...say like masculine/masculine, feminine/feminine...just to make very ez examples. Obviously gender could be broken down more, but I'm trying to keep this hella ez).

So, you may have two same sex people (say, two female ID'd people), whose gender (butch on butch) match. They are homosexed, and also homogendered. But you may also have two differently sexed folks (male/female...again to keep it simple), whose genders are aligned (effeminate male with a non-masculine female). Heterosexed but homogendered. A transman and a female ID'd butch...could be heterosexed, but homogendered also (or heterosexed and heterogendered if the transman were feminine). (again, using gender very loosely as feminine and masculine just to keep things simple).

Either of these couples (as labete states) is going to make some people somewhat uncomfortable. While this discomfort could be lumped into some sort of 'homophobia', with the het couple, it's not a matter of homophobia (since they're straight). It's the effeminate gender of the male that makes folks uncomfortable. The same could be said for het butches.

I am probably not explaining myself well, but I can't post long right now...I'm at work, but wanted to see what folks had to say.


Dylan

Ohhhhhhhhh. yeah yeah, totally get you. Yes that has marched across by brain before in a half-arsed way, getting lost and distracted in any other side thoughts passing along parallel.

totally. I hadn't thought about it in terms of "why people get uncomfortable" just "why I still consider that "het couple" not het at all and actually completely queer. I think the first one a met was my partner's (at the time) ex who was butch lesbian, falling in love with an effeminant bisexual male who wooed her for yonks. it may have been hetero/hetero even in both terms but it was still queer-ass.

that isn't even an example you were using, but it sure as fuck made people VERY uncomfortable, from every single group... Cept the bi friends they had...

But yes I see what you are saying, completely. Also another friend, who transitioned, who used to butch-femme, found he was more attracted to transmen after a few years. we had a good chat. He said that "I dunno, I think my sexuality is just very homo. after transitioning, it just felt too hetero for some reason I can't put my finger on..."

so, maybe for some people the homosex/homosexuality/homogender is all part of it?

My 4 cents.

I believe the heart what the heart wants..Desire is a power so often out of our control..It comes and goes in all aspects of life..in high school I loved looking at feminine woman..yet my girlfriend was a tomboy lol..I appreciate a beautiful woman any size shape and color..I tend to desire the butch more becuase of the security I find in that dynamic..but like say if Kate Beckensale was available and looked in my direction..i'd take it! lol..and enjoy it lol..ooooooooo would I ever haha..ahem..off topic ok where was I? lol..oh ya..My desire for all things in life are different and eclectic..But being gay and living with the stigma that at times comes with that, made me realize that althougth I do not understand something in my community does not mean it is wrong or shouldnt happen. Do what makes you happy..you only get one go in this world..fuck it up! and in a good way :)

just a side note..I have a 16 yr old daughter who tells me her friends think im the coolest because Im a lesbian..rewind this when I was 16 and I was NOT the coolest because I was..wow how far we have come lol..

Enjoying my coffee and loving my life
Lilli

Whatever will come, will come
Whatever will happen, will happen
Whatever will be, will be

Que Sera, Sera!

Well, i fetishize butch on butch. It's just hot.

i once got seriously chastised because i couldn't stop looking at this hot hot hot threesome of young butches at a play party. It was worth it. OMG.

i have got some shit from femmes for dating a femme. i mean some serious shaming stuff. i wish they just thought, oh, there goes a lesbian. Really homophobic reactions. "Ewwwwww" i got several times. This is LIVE. No computer to hide behind. i got that online -- in chat -- though too. i have heard things like, "IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII don't do Ma'ams." i don't know what to say to that except, good, that leaves more for me.

Amen! Amen!!

I also thinks its just hawt - and will just tell folks that I am objectifying them!

I don't understand the very rigid perceptions people have concerning butch/butch or femme/femme. I didn't give up my "lesbian card" when I embraced that I fit into the femme category. Hell, I probably salivate over women more than Jess does! :freak:

I really wish that we, as a LGBTIQ (etc) community could stop being so critical and judgmental of one another - how do we expect the rest of the world to embrace our diversity when we don't practice what we preach?

butchonbutch dot ning

If you happen to be looking for something try it. We wish we knew where this b4b community is. Sort of the mythical lost land of butches, we hear about it but no one knows where it really is. Nice to daydream about it sometimes. It's like the lost tribe of Amazons.

ohhh zomg but i find butches hot, hot, HAWT! mostly though, i want to be them, rather than fuck them. but i don't see anything wrong with any adult being with another adult. butch on butch? beautiful.

butch/butch
 

I have been out for 10 yrs and this is my whole life.....being a middle to a soft butch and being w/ a butch...Never thought I would find one that just loves me for me. WELL Now I have she is in Conn....but wants to move out to CA. She was born in Britain but moved to RI when she was 14 and then to SD and now to Conn. but she wants to move out to Calif to be w/ me. Never been this deep in love w/ someone before....having to pinch myself all the time...is this real.:moonstars::hangloose::fastdraq::bunchflowers ::batman::pirate:

deathbypoem, have you checked out www dot butchboi dot com ? Lots of hot butches, bois, and ftms! In fact, I know many of them. ;)

In Oakland/San Francisco a lot of masculine ID'd folks date, play, have sex, and partner with each other. Many femme/femme couples do as well, but it’s extremely rare to actually see them coupled. Knowing many of these femmes (my partner included), it has nothing to do with fear of stigma, they simply prefer butches. I must admit that at first I did feel a bit uncomfortable with my partner's attraction to femmes. Within all these possible combinations though, the vast majority of couples here are butch/femme.

I haven't seen or personally experienced judgment for any combination of queers including cisgender men. Perhaps I'm just fortunate to have an open-minded circle of friends. However, on very rare occasions there does tend to be some stigma if a butch or femme marries or partners with a cisgender man, more so when a femme does.


I don't date or partner masculine ID'd people, but do play and occasionally have sex with them. I always top and the energy is quite different, more rough, raw, more emotionally detached, no romance, less physically and sexually satisfying, but extremely mentally satisfying and a much different power exchange that I really love. Even as mean and nasty as I can be with them, I'm still sensitive and nurturing, and it's always mutually satisfying; once a Daddy, always a Daddy. ;) Speaking of which, I love being in a D/b relationship. I definitely understand the attraction and hotness aspect of masculine/masculine energy and have been with people that prefer that. It's just not the sort of dynamic I want full-time. I’m really hardwired attracted to femmes. I adore everything about them. :)

In Oakland/San Francisco a lot of masculine ID'd folks date, play, have sex, and partner with each other. Many femme/femme couples do as well, but it’s extremely rare to actually see them coupled. Knowing many of these femmes (my partner included), it has nothing to do with fear of stigma, they simply prefer butches.
why is there the stigma of 2 butches or a middle and butch being together....I am a softy and my gf is a butch....THIS is all I have been w/ the whole 10 yrs that I have been out as a lesbian. The first woman I ever dated was on Gay.com she was a tweener and me the soft butch.....most people can tell the min they meet me that I am gay...because of the fact that I guess I wear my sexuality out there...that I don't hide very well.

I just recently started coming to the planet in the last yr. IN fact I think it has been only in the last 6 mos that I really got involved w/ getting to know people here. I like seeing femmes....they are wonderful "eye Candy" but there isn't a sexual attraction to them. I always think that I am the odd duck....for my feelings towards butches.

Does anyone know about the Butch/femme Scene in the Stockton Sacramento area or down here in say the area of Pomona/covina/claremont/glendora area???

Hi naturlover,

I'm not sure if you're responding directly to my quote or not, but I believe you may have misunderstood me. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I stated not having seen any stigma in my community between butch or femme couples, and that there are many more butch couples, but hardly any femme couples. The lack of femme couples isn't due to their fear of stigma, but a preference for butches. I hope that clears things up for you.


I also just realized that my statement above sounds like I'm not as mean and nasty nor have rough and raw sex with femmes. That is FAR from the case! :) It's just not as emotionally and sexually satisfying for me with masculine folks.

butches and butches
 

yes it did thanks very very much

I am wondering if this is the same for other areas up there my love and I can't afford to live directly in the Bay area but would love to go and hang out there a lot when we can and have the $$ to.:glasses::sunglass::hangloose::fastdraq::pirate ::batman::2butch:

butch on butch is such a fascinating concept.

To me its such a celebration of equals. Its also really sexy. Here in milwaukee, butches dating butches is a strict no-no. They feel that in order to really be a true lesbian it has to be butch/femme or femme/femme. Its nothing but bs and discrimination. I've noticed that people will always be uncomfortable with anything they dont even slightly understand.

I am nothing but a gender fuck. My identity lies all over the grey area of the kinsey scale in terms of gender and orientation. I love all women and trans bois. Its amazing the about of bull i get for being a butch that loves other butches and trans guys. For me its all about gender play and the fact that its taboo here makes it so much sexier. Its like being 2 gay men but far from it. Its impossible to find another butch that enjoys being with other butches. ironically now, the girl im with is the farthest thing from being butch. ultra femme and not my type. maybe thats why it works so well.

My thoughts have always been, we have so many limitations put on us by society as a whole, why put them on ourselves?

I personally love all relationships. Butch/butch femme/femme butch/femme ect.. (I think you get the point) relationships. I find that nothing is more adorable than seeing two butch women walking hand in hand. I love butches and find them sexy, so why wouldn't I love that dynamic?

Like I said I love all relationships and all people. I LOVE EVERYONE! Ok well some I love on a strictly platonic basis, like men. But I still love everyone.

Ok shutting up now.

I live in a city, where lots of b/b, b/f, f/f, f/t, g/t, g/b and so on all date each other and hang out in different scenes. In fact I feel I'm doing a bit of a disservice as a lot of people I know have no interest in actually wearing a label, else they wear a rather 'shallow' label (as in, I have short hair therefore I call myself butch).

I think it's great! For myself I have dated a fantastic variety of women, so I was mortally offended once to join a b/f site only to read endless 'jokes' about how disgusting b/b was and how horny f/f was *vom*