Exclusion: A Women's Issue?
 

The topic of this thread may seem initially offensive and I pray that is not the case. I see it as a very timely and perhaps imperative discussion to host in this , if not every, LGBT ( et al) community. I see growing pains happening left and right and many folks attempting to touch on the very "touchy" subject of needing and requesting separate space for discussions, etc and not quite being able to " get there".

We as a whole are primarily female ( body) born individuals( whether we agree with that biological fact or are unfortunate to have been "misplaced" in that body) who have chosen a melange of venues with which to express our inner selves. We are MTF's ,FTM's ,gay, queer, trans-sexual-sensual-gendered-continental. Our common denominator is the "female" or "woman" somewhere within us. Sometimes surfaced and sometimes tucked away and less "up front". The experiences we have or have had as these "females" is what connects us. If not, I ask , what is?

I think it is amazing that so many people with such vast life experience can gather within this ( and other similar) spaces and become so very close in our sharing. It is equally amazing, that we often fraction ourselves off defensively rather than allowing for .. no.. "praising" the differences with the respect that can sometimes only come with respectful "exclusion".

Please understand, when I use the term exclusion, it is not without a great sense of dread as we ( women, whether current or former or yet to become) do not "allow" ourselves this privilege. I dread being misunderstood or seen as a "separatist" or discriminatory or any other variety of words that someone looking to take issue with could find. This is my fear... being a woman who is not allowed to "choose" to talk with or be with those whom I choose or moreover.. "without" the voices I don't currently wish to hear in said discussion/ activity.

I have witnessed this in threads from femmes, from female identified butches, from transexuals, from transgendered, from People of Color, from religion based groups, from political groups.. The list goes on within female born communities. It seems as if we don't feel our voices worthy enough to just say " this is for ______ not for _______" That should be enough.

I observe we as humans, share our space daily with all kinds of "others" and mostly we either gain from that sharing or we have moments of oppression for it. Why is it so hard for us to say "I want some time with _______ and while I love you... go away for a while" ? It is often the knowing smile of a familiar that gets us through the day. Why not demand time for that?

I think , personally, that many of the issues that we see become so heated in so many threads might become resolved if we allow one another the space to just be those separate facets of ourselves without interruption. If femmes or transmen or female id'ed butches need a thread for themselves, just own it. Name it and claim it! We have an entire site, or world ,for that matter to meet back on common ground. Perhaps we will be stronger individuals to add to the collective if we take our opportunities to gather our strength.

I imagine a world of strong people coming together to claim what is and should be ours. If parts of the whole need to take some time out now and then to be with like folks to make that happen, Blessed Be! Exclusion is not a wholly bad thing. We do not have to invite everyone to every party.

These are just some thoughts I have been stewing over in the past month or so of observing many thread of thoughts expressed on line. I think there is room and love enough for everyone. I also think there can be respect enough to allow for time/ space for "just us".. whomever the "us" is.

Without trying to "step on toes" and also not trying to "tiptoe around a situation" I think there are simple ways we can make this happen without doing either. EX: A user has a discussion for "femmes".. go to femme zone, post it with disclaimer "for femmes only". That should be simple enough to respect. If someone other than a femme wishes to follow it, do so.. post a "thanks" for something they like, but refrain from commenting unless choosing to do so in private. This is of course, just suggestion. This could allow for private conversing without derailing threads or anyone feeling "silenced" or "invisible". It will possibly also allow the original conversation to flow on its intended course.

Again.... just thought from yet one of a million observers.

I thank you all for taking the time to read/ respond/ discuss.
Respectfully, Jess

I think that this is a very timely topic and I am not asskissing just because I adore you... you, of all people, know better than that...

Its been two very long work days for me and I can't seem to gather my thoughts on this... will be back to post when I am more coherent.

Respectfully,

What's your point?:blink:
How are we NOT doing this already? You referenced in your post numerous threads where this is exactly what's going on. We ARE requesting dialogue without "other" voices.

So, according to your guidelines, the subgroups that seek a forum to discuss issues without interruption from "other" voices (because so often those "other" voices are very silencing) now should STILL put up with the "others" and NOT disagree publicly? These subgroups must, yet again, refrain?

Really?

Here's a thought...
If one chooses to post in an "only" thread, it is THAT POSTER'S responsibility to read the entire thread and engage respectfully. It is NOT a space to claim or demand everyone dance to your tune.

Jess, I'm pissy about this, but I think your intentions are good. I also know from traveling the boards for awhile that I have learned a lot from reading the dialogue of disagreements. We've all seen minds and attitudes change. If we disallow arguments, then we lose a resource for analyzing ourselves.

Wow .. Sorry you chose to read this that way. It's not what I am attempting to say at all.
Your tone sounds hostile and defensive simultaneously and apparently we may be speaking a different language.
I never suggested anyone "put up" with anything... Quite the opposite, actually.
At any rate.. really sorry my words obviously do not make themselves clear enough for your ears.

I agree, Jess, I did sound hostile and pissy. That's why I edited it a bit. You got the first edition.

Reconsider?

I appreciate your addition and on one hand agree that often arguments can be healthy discourse. I do still think there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying a space is exclusive, unless it is excluding the advancement of person or group of people.

I think that other groups or individuals can still learn quietly by observing and asking direct questions privately, without disrupting an entire thread.

Is it a woman's need to absolutely "include" or a weakness to fear "excluding"?

This is what I am trying to ascertain.

Thank you, blush.

What about other threads on the websites that are age related? Like say someone posting in the 30's thread and they arent even in their 30's, would that be exclusion?

I agree. Claim it and name it. Own it and be clear up front which group the thread is reserved for or which groups are being invited to post.

The only thing that would bother me in a sub-group only thread is if there is untrue or over-generalized things said about another sub-group. Then that other sub-group can't say anything about that. It just hangs there in the air un-answered. Other than that, I think it's awesome to have "only" spaces for particular sub-groups, if they felt a need for it. :)

To me that sounds like an assumption that a "sub-group's" discussion need be policed specifically by "the other group". I personally believe there's enough decent peeps that derogatory comments about others wouldn't just go unchecked...

Sounds like a good balance Jack...

I'm in the middle I know peeps are gonna take advantage... but I also feel like there are those that will cut that off at the pass.

*ever an optipessimist*
Metro

I guess my point is that some things that are said about my particular sub group I have seen in other threads that are meant to be for other sub groups. These things, I believe are well intentioned, but leave me feeling like there are now assumptions about me simply because a few people in my sub group are jerks. I don't feel its appropriate for me to speak up in these threads, cause they are not for me. Yet, I feel like some very unfair things are being said that reflect negatively on me, just on the basis of my belonging to my sub group.

Now I don't tend to report a post unless something egregious has been said, something really awful. I don't report other posts with shades of grey because I don't think that is fair, and a lot of good people with good intentions say things sometimes that fall flat. I usually go into the thread and ask them to clarify what they truly mean. But in the case of threads that aren't for my sub group, I can't do that, otherwise I am perceived to be violating someone's space. I don't want to violate anything. And I refuse to report a post that is in that grey area, either. So I guess a pm to the OP is all I can do, but then what I find to be unfair in the thread goes unanswered in the thread, and I guess there's nothing I can do about that.

Hey I hear you... I've been there. I guess the most we can do in some situations is take solace in the fact that most people with any sense won't characterize an entire group by one persons careless comments.

I started a thread for submissives, making it very clear that that was what it was. Although it's not that active, submissives are posting, including several newly out submissives who consider it a safe enough space to post. The thread is therefore, in my opinion, a positive thread.

So, as the thread starter, what would I do if someone started using our safe space as an opportunity to take obvious pot shots at other groups who weren't in a position - because of the exclusive nature of the thread - to respond? Easy. I'd tell them it's not appropriate because safe, to me, implies maintaining a certain level of common decency, which includes not attacking -remember, I'm talking about extreme accusations here - folks who aren't in a position to defend themselves. And if that didn't work? I'd contact a. a mod., b. the admin., or c. the forum ambassador, depending on the scope of their involvement in individual threads, and ask them to intervene. What I wouldn't do is allow the thread to be de-railed by a pissing match.

Words