[Cyclopea]

Me: in red.

Originally Posted by Arwen

Heart, I am going to tell you that I think you are being unfair and single-minded in your quest to make others agree with you rather than actually discuss this. Can you explain in what way you feel a sense of unfairness in the points Heart has articulated? Specifically unfair to whom and in what way. I'm confused by your charge and would like to understand your point of view...Do you honestly want discussion or do you want conversion on this topic? Because I'm not sure. My gut reaction is that you want discussion but it feels like conversion to me. I own that reaction might simply be my own baggage.Again, I'm confused by the discussion vs. conversion that you bring up. A clearly articulated point of view in a discussion could "convert" or change a point of view I suppose but it seems like in your context you mean something coercive? And I would like to understand what you mean.

I think there is a created hatred between female-id butches and masculine-id butches. I'm not sure who or how or why it got created, but it is a virus in our community.My perspective is different on this and I hope your sense of hatred in our community is not true. As a butch woman I feel respected and supported by many men and males in this community, and I certainly hope others feel the same.

Personally, I ask folks how they id if they are of the butch persuasion. Yes, I will default to he because I'm lazy--not because I devalue women. However, I also ask people which pronoun they prefer because that's important to me--to use the language they want used.You say you default to he because you are lazy, but why choose he over she? Why not default to she out of laziness? Or was it a coin flip situation? Maybe you could default to he half of the time, and she the other, or at least randomize the laziness? Why privilege he?

However, I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she.
If I decide to call everyone on this site including yourself "he" because it is easier for me and you correct me, should I feel guilty? Should I pity you? What if I just call everyone "it"?
Sometimes I don't think I can win at this contrived freaking id game. I really don't. As a woman my femaleness is not "contrived". I don't understand why you think being a woman is contrived. Are you saying there is no such thing as a woman?

And I am not sure I want to.

Now before anyone jumps down my throat, let me explain why.

I'm freaking tired of the id game. I battle my own id war all the time (except when I am in a specifically BF group) so sometimes, you will have to forgive me for not giving a rat's patootie about anyone else's id. To be clear- that works both ways, right? You don't give a rat's patootie how anyone refers to you either right?

I do stand for someone's right to be called what they want. I do honor a person's choice in their id. Except that it's a contrived id that you don't give a rat's ass about?

I do not honor the notion that because X, Y and X butches are female-id, it means A, B, and C's masculinity is feminized. How can one person's personal choice of id be affected by someone's else's?I don't know- I don't see this happening but I respect that you do and maybe I am missing it.

I guess I'm truly tired right now and this discussion is working my last queer nerve.

Bottom line. I can see where calling a butch woman a "man with boobs" is offensive. I believe I even said that here. I will remove the personalization inherently added by the fact that it was said by someone in the news. I will remove the personalization of wondering whether or not her partner gives a flying rat's patoot about it.
You say that you can see where the particular example cited by the Op could be offensive. As a woman who is non-traditionally feminine I can tell you that for me personally I have received a lifetime of commentary and intrusion based on my non-conformity to socio/political ideals of what females should look like and how they should behave. Much of this commentary centers on the idea that I am less than a "real" woman, ergo male. Yet I am not male. I am but one variation of all the things that are female. I am damn tired of being told I am less of a woman. Damn tired. And I come to this community for support and sisterhood from other butch women and our allies. Not to be told I am a male. Not deliberately out of hatred as happens in my everyday lesbophobic mysogynist culture, and not because someone is too "lazy" to remember that women exist.

I just wonder if we will ever have a day, an hour, a nanosecond where my choice of id doesn't interfere with your(generic) choice of id.

If I can state that I don't id as a (fill in the blank), without pissing off/offending/hurting all those who do id as a (fill in the same blank).

That's what I get so damned tired of. Linus' id doesn't affect Jackhammer's. Jackhammer's doesn't affect Met's. Met's doesn't affect Boots13. ad nauseum

Does anyone think we can ever get there? Where we don't even need discussions about female-id vs butch-id? Where it just doesn't freaking matter?I'm not sure what you mean by female-id vs. butch id. I think all the butch women responding here are both female and butch. Can you please explain what you mean by female vs. butch? I would like to understand.

I just get so tired.

I don't get tired of respecting other community members be they femme, butch, androgynist, bisexual, lesbian, male, woman, female, no gender, men, intersexed, or whatever. I feel energized by the diversity of this community, not taxed and exhausted. Is there anything we can do to help you feel better? What would make the diversity feel better for you?