[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Jess

I think it is very difficult for some of us ( self included) to understand where in the b-f dynamic "men" fit. I think sometimes that is why so many of the "gender" arguments come about. For me, I have always defined b-f as butch and femme females. I guess I naively think that once someone transitions to male, they don't really fit "b-f", because.. well... they are a man... This does not exclude them from the LGBT community, but in my tiny little brain, it just doesn't fit butch-femme. It is a different dynamic. It is man-woman or man-man or what have you. Not many men need to be described as butch, I guess.

I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but please know I am attempting to have an authentic heartfelt discussion about this. I don't know how to make all of the choices or preferences make sense. I am just trying.

Thanks again, it IS indeed a very worthy topic.

I am kind of understanding Jess here...I think.

We, as a society, like to give things names or labels. It might be a byproduct of advertising techniques or maybe just indicates we are too lazy to use extra words.

The non-hetero community in all it facets is a very complicated place, getting more and more complicated as new definitions are added. And the womens community has always seemed to welcome more and more variations cuz we like to be inclusive rather than exclusive it seems.

I, too, am confused as to how this works and struggling to find the words to use which wont offend someone. Then again, sometimes just "hello" can be offensive

The Butch-Femme community as far as I know from history was to celebrate the special connection between feminine female energy and masculine female energy into specific dynamic between women who wanted to be with other women.

In the broader arena, the Butch-Femme community is the logical place for non female identifying folks to be. The energy exchange and dynamics are already in place, accepted, and understood. Someone identifying as a non female would have a heck of a time in a general "lesbian" arena.

On the other hand, I personally, am offended when a non female uses the word Butch. Butch, to me, is a noun not an adjective.

Plus, I have fought for many years not to be seen as a woman who wants to be a male just because I am Butch. And, I worry that Butch as a distinct identity is being undermined and redefined to accomodate non females. And, the accomodation has me back at square one having to reiterate....no, I dont want to be a male.

This is a very complicated issue on many levels. Some trans folks can pass for males without a problem and blend into the general population. So can most femmes. It is the Butch who has to straddle several worlds and be subjected to much speculation and much misunderstanding.

We are more likely to understand the difficulties involved in being seen as something you are not. Hence, this aspect of the subculture is a bridge of sorts.

Yet, Butch-Femme, per se has historically been a subculture in the lesbian world. If it incorporates non females is it still lesbian? And are former lesbians now involved with non females lesbians or heteros?

Before anyone jumps all over me, like Jess, I am struggling to understand something and raising, hopefully, appropriate questions in an accepting arena.
One can respect something even if they dont understand it.

As a closing note, sometimes people make things too complex and become stuck. I like to think when this happens, the Power that is, finds ways to nudge us along onto a different but growth filled path.