[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes, I agree with this post and your other one AtLast. Femininity is viewed as negative.

I think it is very important to examine the language, and underlying attitudes, that is used for describing butches and women overall. No one here is placing blame on any one particular group of people (i.e. femmes) or something one particular person said.

There is this subtle, and many times not so subtle message, within butch femme communities that if you are male identified or you are butch (no matter how you identify) that the worse thing in the world is to be female and a woman. That and internalized homophobia is where we got to the male defaults in the first place. It actually has nothing to do with male identified butches at all.

Why do people use terms like emasculate and feminize (which I hear coming from butches and trans men just as much as femmes) when male identified butches and trans men's pronouns, gender or sexual boundaries are not respected? Your identity and boundaries are not being respected for who you are, but it's not a crime to be a woman. It's transphobia and misogyny at work and just plain disrespect to you as a person. I'd like more male identified people and others when they see these forms of behavior call that out instead of getting insulted that people are trying to emasculate them or feminize them (treat them like a "woman").

How can someone emasculate or feminize someone by how they refer to them or how someone is touched? I don't believe the way someone refers to you or touches you "feminizes" or "masculinizes" (we only hear about "feminizes") you. Your femininity and masculinity is yours. You own it.

I am a stone butch and my boundaries and sexual preferences have absolutely nothing to do with not wanting to be "feminized." When one particular ex of mine (who isn't on this website or last website) tried to say I wasn't butch when she was mad I told her flat out- I am butch and you can't take that away from me.

There is lots and lots of anti-woman language and attitudes in our culture. Unfortunately it is very evident in butch femme culture as well. Everyone's gender, pronouns and sexuality should be respected, but it is not a horrible thing to be a woman and butch women embrace their masculinity just as male identified butches do.

Yes, and the main reason for my having to apply so much of my spiritual beliefs to butch identity actually stems from this as well as the limitations of the English language. Yikes, and my very broken Italian and spanish does not help either! Two-Spirit, some Pagan ideology as well as Jungian psychology, along with Eastern philosophies seem to give me better balance personally as a butch. I wish I had talent with languages, as I believe this would help.

Nope... no one can take butch identity from anyone or femme identity Just wish we would leave the patriarchal men/male/masculine as supreme behind... sort of like the mix, myself and prefer equity in all things. Just what fits for me.