[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Thanks for the clarification

I DO see a lot of the insistent 'trans'-ing, and overdoing the "My partner is FTM". Like, instead of just saying, "I'm with a man" or "I dated a guy once", it's "I was with a TRANSguy once..." or "I date a lot of FTMs" etc. Like, it's not sufficient to just say, "I'm with a man" or "I'm with a guy".

In some cases, I get the impression it's a way of outing oneself/queering oneself (and I see this in real time, so that's why I'm wondering if online it's the same reasoning). What I see in real time is this 'Chosen Closet'. Like...today, I want to be in the closet, so I'm with a guy...but tomorrow, when we go to SuchASuchPlace, I want to be outed, so I'm with a TRANNNNNSguy" (said like annoying people who say, "Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadies") instead of just owning that the responsibility is One's own to out themselves. It's kind of like using someone else to do your 'dirty work' (if coming out can be considered 'dirty work')...like (and I'm saying 'like' wayyyy too much), if I out YOU, then I don't have to take responsibility for outing ME. Does that make sense?

And in some cases, I wonder if repeating the TRANSman mantra over and over is some kind of 'Don't Take My Queer Card Away...Seeeeeeeeeeeee he's not a man man...he's a TRANNNNNNNSman'...and I wonder this, because I tend to see this particular behavior more online than I do in real time. I don't see the over usage of TRANSman the way I do online. I hear partners just say, "My boyfriend/guy/he/etc". No one in my real time circle of friends over uses trans to the extent I see online.

I don't know if that makes sense, because this conversation in this particular thread is missing a lot, because some posts are missing from the original conversation, and some posts are taken without the context of the original conversation.

And yeah, I've known (of) some people who insist their guy is 'formerly female' or who see their guy as (formerly) female first...then trans. Again, their partner(s) is/are expected to be female when it's convenient and male when it's convenient, but it doesn't seem up to the guy...it's up to the partner and the partner's situation. Again, I have no idea how the actual guy(s) feel about this, because I don't really talk to these people, I just know what I see/hear.


Dylan

You know, as I read this, I have to say that it fits with my experience in terms of Transmen I know in real-time as opposed to online. But, I really don't have a lot of on-line experience overall. The old site (which I no longer participate on) and this one are the only ones I have ever actually joined. I have a FB account, but that is for keeping up with people in my life that don't live near me. there are some people there that I met via this community both on and off-line. Some are trans (both FtM's & MtF's).

I don't hear this continual referral to the used to be a woman in real-time in either the queer or straight (as they prefer to call themselves) couples I do real-time interaction with. Could this just be because I know their history and they know I know their history? Is it related to my not being trans?

Something else I can think of is that by and large it is the FtM's (or MtF's) I know personally that use Transman or just trans to describe themselves except for the 2 I have known since childhood (so they are very much of a different generation than a lot of transpeople here and do mot identify as queer). My inter-gendered, female identified cousin just calls herself a woman, however (again, she is in her mid 70's).

I have had conversations with femmes and dated a few that do bring up dating transmen and unfortunately, they are often negative about this. Which, I guess is why they are dating me perhaps (who knows)! It might be that our community actually has grown in that trans comes up more freely due to more awareness.

It does feel like that online, the trans distinction is often made by femmes. But, it could simply be, again, about awareness and also trying to be inclusive as trans issues are interwoven on the site. And transmen here usually identify themselves as trans in their profile- they don't usually put Man or male in the blank to the left! Probably because this is a B-F queer site.

In terms of outing, I think that is up to the Transperson and how they want to handle it. I would hope that this would be respected. What you say about this being due to some kind of 'Don't Take My Queer Card Away... motivation is quite disturbing and I think goes to the dissing of femmes that date/partner with transmen.

All that being said, I feel like I can't generalize about this because I haven't read every single post on every single thread. Also, I don't know about your experience as a Transman and mine as a butch woman play into it.

Do most transmen want to just be referred to as men and not trans? Do they want their past as a woman to be hidden? It seems that many transmen here want this to be discussed because many know that there could be butches struggling with gender issues that need to feel OK about asking them questions about their experience.

I think I am in a state of puzzlement at the moment.... but this is an interesting discussion, but I am wondering about individual differences among transmen about it all.

I am also wondering about the formerly-female situation and the fact that most transmen have never been female, actually. I am speaking to those that did indeed feel that they were in the wrong body, and always felt/knew they were male. I would think that to be referred to as formally-female here, would be quite disturbing to the individual.