Adorable you made a blanket statement that people with mental illness do not have a choice. In my experience that is simply not true. You also likened Plato's insistence on choice as privileged. For myself your characterizing people with mental illness as unable to make choices was privileged. You base your definition of choice, rational thought, and self-awareness on the "norm" of those who are not differently abled. This ignores the fact that DA people vary greatly in their abilites and that within their own range of experience they are able to make choices, have rational thoughts and be self-aware.
You went on to use two examples of how people with mental illness do not have a choice. One was an anxiety disorder example like OCD and the other seemed to be more of a thought disorder example. I am not sure what your background is. I am not sure where you get these examples. I am not sure if you are DA. I am not making any assumptions about that.
I am DA. I am letting you know that it is important to me to give another persepctive on the statement that mentally ill people do not have a choice.
As far as the whole example you made at the end I am not sure what to say. I very much dislike hypotheticals in discussions like these. I have a very hard time grasping them. In the situation you outlined I would politely say no thank you and put you on ignore. No pass. What your intent was or what your capactiy is would not be a part of my thought process.
Oh! Edited to add that if anyone is interested in an excellent book on mental illness and choice please read The Center Cannot Hold by Elyn R. Saks. This is the best book I have ever read in describing mental illness and what is possible within one person to adapt and cope with it. I cannot recommend it highly enough!
Oh! One more thing. The assumption that we walk around with the same capacity is not true. I agree there. That is not what I am saying or implying. All I am saying is that we all walk around with capacity! Everyone has the capacity to do and be things. Everyone.
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Originally Posted by adorable
I hear what you are saying and I personally think that it's great that you have both the tools and capacity to do this. My point is, that not everyone does. That is true in all facets of our lives and not just limited to special needs, brain injuries, disorders or mental illness. If someone is saying something to me - how I take it matters. If I operate under the assumption that people are all in fact like me, thinking like me, seeing things the way that I do - that doesn't always work. I believe that it is my responsibility to understand THAT. It is my responsibilty as being someone who walks around "getting it" to have compassion for those who don't have the same tools, level of comprehension, quick thinking or capacity for higher levels of understanding.
Capacity matters. Intent matters.
If a drunk driver kills someone - that driver made a choice to get behind the wheel drunk.
If someone has a heart attack and kills someone while they are driving - that person didn't make a choice.
One will go to jail. One will not.
In both cases the outcome of an innocent person being harmed was the same. A pass is issued for the heart attack.
It doesn't make what happened any less tragic, but in one case you can see where it wasn't that persons fault. They didn't have control over having a heart attack when they did.
I see things very much that way. If I said to you, "I want to be your girlfriend." And based on the totality of my posts you know that I am normally articulate, well spoken and seem pretty smart. Your response to me would be probably "Sorry, I am not interested."
If I sent you a pm back that says "why?" that is weird. Because the information you have about me is that I should have the capcity to have this conversation like an adult.
Your next question might be "Are you drunk or something?"
My response might be, "No. I like you and I think you would like me if you gave me a chance."
Um, yeah, at this point it's feeling all Mr. Yuck. I am someone who should GET it. This conversation shouldn't be happening. It's situationally and socially inappropriate.
So now you get mad, assuming that at this point, I ain't getting it. "Leave me the fuck alone!"
"But I just wanted to be your friend why are you being a bitch?"
Now. Let's say that from the totality of my posts you can tell that I struggle with formulating thoughts and there is clearly something "off." I say what I tend to think in very simple terms and when asked for clarification from other people, generally say the same thing over again BECAUSE in my head it's making sense the way I am saying it. I rarely understand why people get upset with my posts because the posts make sense to me. I am participating like everyone else. The part of YOU that has the capacity to see this is now going to respond to that first pm. "I want to be your girlfriend."
Strange? Yes. As strange as if I, adorable, in all my thinking capacity and excellent command of communication had sent it? No. In one case no pass is given because all the information you have doesn't warrant one. The benefit of the doubt is thrown out there that I might be drunk - that is something that might get loose lips a temporary pass. If you are dealing with the second me in the example. How you read that pm is likely to be different IF you have read my other posts and know the way I communicate is convoluted, disorganized and sometimes socially inappropriate. Understanding my limitations with regards to capacity is important. Because HOW the rest of the interaction is going to go is often controlled by the person with the higher capacity. If the person being approached reads the person as just stupid and with sinister motives - then the responses are going to be far different.
Rather then getting angry or hostile at what might be a considered socially inappropriate proposition - the conversation might go more like this.
"I'm sorry, I'm not interested."
"Why? You would like me. I want to be your girlfriend."
"Oh I do like you and I think we should just be friends."
"I want to be friends too."
"Good, me too."
The assumption that we all walk around with the same capacity is simply not true.
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