[Bit]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Please don't stop posting. *smiles*

Kosmo, thank you for that. I appreciate the support.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Still, I'm struggling here because it feels wrong to me that a butch person would answer this question - how we can 'change how we are perceived' - and honestly, I just don't feel it's appropriate. I just don't feel it's your place.
<snip>
Please do not misread me, Kosmo. This is not personal between me, e, and you Kosmo.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}} You know I love you, darlin, and I admire your mind intensely. I recognize what you want from the thread, and I heard you saying you didn't want this to be personal between you and Kosmo.

I dunno how Kosmo took it, but reading your post, it felt personal to me. Please let me explain why?

You said in the beginning of your post that Kosmo's choice to post confused you. Two things stand out for me. The first is, early in the thread we as a group said Butch/Trans input was welcome, and we engaged in conversations with the Butches and Transmen who posted. The second is, Blush asked Kosmo a direct question; she specifically asked for that post. Wouldn't have ignoring her been a subtle form of silencing her? It would certainly have been utterly rude!

What bothers me now is that to me, personally, it seems like Kosmo has been silenced--and not just Kosmo, but by extension all the Butches/Transmen in this thread. I read all those posts saying "why are we always the ones who are "supportive"? Why can't our partners be supportive?" here is a masculine person being supportive, answering a question asked by someone in the community.... but the response we give is "please don't."

I fully admit this is simply how I read it. Maybe I'm the only one who sees it that way, and if so, well, I apologize for derailing the thread.

I just know that I do not live in a vacuum and I cannot be authentically me without deeply examining all the parts of my life.... and half the examining comes from without, from testing my own thoughts, perceptions, and opinions up against those of other people. The people I value the most for that examining are always the people in my own community, whatever their identities might happen to be... I am looking always for the thoughts which shed light on my soul, and I find them as often from Butches and Transmen as from Femmes. I don't wish for any of us to be silenced.

Please know that I understand your goal for the thread is to have a deep conversation among Femmes; I appreciate your willingness to shepherd this convo... but if Butch/Trans voices are not welcome as part of that conversation, then I think we should be really clear and say so outright to everyone, and we should as a group stop inviting their participation.

Originally Posted by June

She had just voiced her own internal sexism about my demeanor. My forthrightness, my sometimes strident tone, my confidence, my...everything.

Because I am often not "A good girl", therefore, I must be... masculine? Because if Femme = Feminine, doesn't Butch = masculine? At least to some degree? For a lot of us?

And each of us has to reconcile it within ourselves, and if we are brave we talk about it, lay it on the table, so to speak and hope that others will try to understand outside of their own belief system.

*wry smile* I would say that since the very definition of Butch (unless we changed it again and someone forgot to send me the memo) is "Female Masculinity," that yes, Butch equals masculine to some degree. And I have seen this before, June, but in a sad way, Femmes deciding that since they are not stereotypical Good Girls, nor even stereotypical Good Women, that they must therefore not be Femme, must have been mistaken all those years, must not ever have been Femme, must be Butch instead.

Binaries that have no elastic to them make me sad. Why does it have to be either/or, and so narrowly defined? But that's what society teaches/preaches.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

As a woman I am expected to be supportive of everyone, all the time. That gets old and it is my mistake and my responsibility to support myself first always. I don't do that and that is a problem. It is the age old lament I think. When is there time for me?

Only when you take it, darlin. Only when you decide that you, too, have the same value and worth as any other human being. Only when you break through the bonds of society's conditioning and insist, not just to everyone you have already taught to devalue you, but to yourself--for you are the one who devalues yourself to begin with--that your time is your own.

If you have small children, you may have to pay for that time with cash, to a babysitter. Think about how much you might pay a babysitter... and what that says about your estimate of your own value as a human being. I find most Femmes to be absolutely priceless, value beyond measuring... but someone who is struggling with the whole idea may only believe she herself is worth that five or ten dollars she pays a babysitter.

Someone who cannot "justify" paying the babysitter at all? Actions speak louder than words: she believes she is worthless.

Whether one has children or not, it's worth thinking about. What message would you want to give to [your] children about the value of adult women? Are they intrinsically priceless? Or are they barely worth the money it would take to pay a babysitter?

Originally Posted by christie0918

....I think as the subcultures of the queer world grow and expand, so does the coloring of our perceptions. I think that as a subculture within a subculture (BDSM within BF) becomes more highly visible and is the “chatter (latest, greatest new thing)” that “voice” or that image can be seen as the collective view.

This is a good point, christie, and I ran into it repeatedly when I was newbie to the b-f world. Because I was new and also not part of the BDSM world, I didn't recognize for a couple of years that the attitudes I ran into were not typical of "Butches" but were, in fact, a subculture. Looking back, I think some of the Butches who were not part of that subculture were influenced by it anyway, because I found the attitudes pervasive for a while.

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

OK, so something strange happened last week. A friend told me that his G/F thinks Cynthia (my Butch G/F) is soooo much more intelligent, and it's so great to be able to talk just to her about intelligent things.....blah blah. Another friend said that people automatically assume Cynthia is more intelligent because she is more masculine and men are automatically supposed to be smarter. WTFFFFFFFFFFF??????

*reminds you* "bit" is NOT about pony play, "bit" is NOT about pony play....

I utterly HATE it when people assume the more masculine one is automatically the brains of the outfit. [My screen name came from that.] I'm not gonna be with anyone who is not majorly intelligent, since intelligence is a big turn-on for me, but really now.... I am more than just nice. I am more than just a Good Girl.

My intelligent partner has some pretty high standards of his own in the Intelligence Department. He is not with me because I'm glamorous, yanno? *eyeroll from the Homespun girl*

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Then, chatting with another friend this weekend, I mentioned how differently I dress when I do or do not have a G/F. How when I am single I would never go to the bar in a dress and heels, because I need to look more in control. WTFFFFFFFFFFFF?

Do I maybe use Cynthia's masculinity as a shield?

Maybe... I know that in situations of danger or possible discomfort, I use Gryph's masculinity as a shield.

I also know that I use my own clothing choices as a shield.

I also use just being partnered as a shield.

I would never go into a bar wearing "flirty feminine" clothes if I did not want to come out of the bar on someone's arm. That would just be asking for hassles, yanno? But if I am with my partner, I can dress any way I choose; it's safe.

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Is this reaction and my desire to tell everyone who has the biggest dick in our house, my inner 16 year old boy having a tantrum?

My Femme is intelligent and wears a big blue opalescent dick.

I think you answered your own question. It is your Inner Femme asserting Herself, claiming Her own power.