Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadgeek
I'm sure that many nations do see it that way. I'm sure that there are plenty of nations--all the ones that voted to remove sexual orientation--that do not see any moral problem with execution of queers. I'm not talking about this from the point of view of "we're so great, they're so horrible". I'm talking about this from the point of view of *regardless* of our behavior, certain things are morally repugnant. Summary execution of people because they are different has got to be at the top of that list.
Was our invasion of Iraq justified? No. Does that mean that somehow, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was justified--even in a post hoc fashion? No, because wars of aggression are immoral--not because the United States does them but because anyone does them. I'm not surprised by this and you know I'm not a jingoistic, "America uber alles" but we in the West have *got* to get things back on an even ethical keel.
If the United States were, in fact, a Rawlsian utopia, acknowledged by all people as a place where unfairness cannot even be contemplated much less actually practiced it would not change the fact that this action at the UN is unjustifiable and an invitation to commit crimes against humanity. If the United States were no more advanced than it was in, say, 1900 this would still hold. The horrors visited upon Europe by the Germans and China and Korea by the Japanese during WWII were not diminished one bit by racial segregation in the United States. Were we right with our own people? Not by even the most generous definition but that doesn't mean that what the Germans or Japanese did was at all mitigated by our own not being right.
We, as Americans, exhibit a callousness to the plight of others every time we utter the words "well, we do this here so who are we to say that it's wrong when they do that there". I am willing to bet that every person living in a nation where the state kills queers would prefer to be someplace that doesn't happen--either there or here. We cannot wait for perfect justice to obtain here before we can be justified to be outraged at injustice someplace else. Firstly, it means that we will turn a consistent blind eye to injustice elsewhere and secondly, every excuse we make undercuts the moral force of our argument here.
If I could change one thing about where liberalism has gone these last 30 years it would be this: we lost sight of the fact that we were involved in a struggle that was not just political but moral. The movement for queer civil rights is a moral struggle with political dimensions, not a political struggle with an ancillary moral dimension. Because a queer in Uganda can be killed for being queer, I am Ugandan. Because a dissident in China can be imprisoned for speaking out against the government, I am Chinese. Because a journalist in Russia who writes an unfavorable story can be assassinated, I am Russian. Because an Afghani can be blown to bits by a drone, I am Afghani. Because an Egyptian can be killed for starting a political party, I am Egyptian. Wherever injustice is done and I am aware of it, I must stand up and be counted as being in the court of justice and not in the host of injustice. I must not make excuses for injustice there because of injustice here.
No nation, really, has credibility by the standards you mention above. Israel doesn't. The United Kingdom doesn't. France doesn't. Nor does Spain. Canada doesn't. Germany doesn't. Russia most certainly doesn't. Iran? nope. China? Not hardly. Pakistan? Not in the least bit. India? Nope. I suppose maybe Iceland or Greenland might but that's probably because I can't think of anything either nation has done recently.
Cheers
Aj
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I agree with you. It is repugnant. I am horrified.
This is a "yes...and"...answer
I just think that if we as voters stood on our government to respect and follow UN rulings no matter who our President is and if we were not as creepy as we are, and if we did not have a huge hand in the sad state many of the countries who voted for this horrible injustice are in, maybe the US would have had more sway with the voting Nations.
I hate it that this is going on, I hate the shape our own country is in. I grew up in a Fascist country and almost throw up every time I hear on
this website "well thats what North Korea does" when discussing what is right and wrong...morally.
I guess I hate it most that my own country is not doing more, and that we have zero high ground clout to be able to say "executing ANYONE is morally wrong".
I want us to have never lied to the UN, to have made the original League of Nations work....etc etc. I know, I am too idealistic.
In conclusion I blame the US and the UK and France and Holland and the countries who in colonizing and making war for personal gain left and are leaving these countries looking for someone to blame for their problems. Queers are an easy target.
Who do we blame for ours?