[Bit]

I missed this convo...

Originally Posted by Kim

It struck me how our expression of femininity via clothes/outward appearance is so very different than how straight people express themselves. I peruse some of the fashion sites that are predominantly straight (I presume femmes are there but I haven't seen them), and there is a myriad of women -- in skirts, jeans, dresses, shorts, bumming out, dressing to the hilt, perfect makeup, no makeup -- there is no hint of a hierarchy or "more feminine than..." based on appearance, clothes, etc.

Hi Kim! Yanno, that's something I've thought for a long long time, that most straight women don't obsess over whether or not they're feminine.

Everything I've seen tells me that what most straight women obsess over is whether or not they're fat.

When you really think about it, I think it might be the same thing, because after all, what does our culture tell us is the reason for an otherwise straight woman to diet? It's to be sexy--and that means it's to please the sexual partners.

Is there any way to separate out sexual desirability from femininity? Only by talking about it, working it through, bringing the hidden messages to the forefront (like we're doing here)... and I personally don't see most straight women doing this, because yanno... they don't talk about being feminine, they talk about being fat.

Originally Posted by Arwen

But. Is this culture? Is it socialization? Is it male-centric?

Or is it female-phobic on some level?

Is it even possible to have a male-centric culture without being female-phobic on some level?

Originally Posted by blush

What hit me about what you (and others) are saying is that the most common descriptor for femmes is entirely based on our appearance. We sum ourselves and each other up based on how we look. Is this human nature or is it the b-f culture?

When something pervades a culture as completely as looks-ism pervades Western society, it can seem like human nature. I think, though, that it's just so pervasive in the larger culture that it continually washes into our b-f culture. It's going to take a LOT of us doing the consciousness-raising analysis of the sources of societal oppression, over a long period of time, to eradicate it.

The good news is twofold: one, we ARE doing that analysis, and two, we've made a lot of progress in the past several years.

Originally Posted by blush

I'm getting at the collective image that a high femme is the best example of femme. We seem to feel that a high femme embodies "femme" best, even if WE don't necessarily wear (or want to wear) that label.

I think you nailed it, and I think we as a collective group see that image, "high femme" whether it's the girly girl or the glamour girl, as the pinnacle of "femmeness" precisely because the larger culture sees it as the pinnacle of femininity... and how can we articulate "Femme" without speaking about "femininity"?

Originally Posted by Gemme

I can see that, I suppose, but for myself...it's not so. In one room, I can see the beauty in everyone, except myself. My internal mirror is jacked up.

I'd be very surprised if this were not very common among those of us who have troubled to do some gender exploration. I think once we start asking ourselves questions like "what makes femininity?" or "what makes true beauty?" we begin to see very clearly that everyone else is beautiful.

I think we don't see it about ourselves because our brainwashing/societal conditioning goes so deep. The moment we can believe on some level that we might be pretty, the OTHER societal conditioning snaps into play--yanno, that one that says, "Shhhh! Don't say anything positive or the gods will strike you DOWN! Don't jinx yourself!"

When you have to fight your way through not just societally implanted images of beauty, but also societally implanted fears of positive thought AND societally implanted fears of being punished, it takes a while to see yourself truly.

I like your Mirror thread, btw. You did a wonderful job with it!