[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Martina

i was responding to Ender's post, to this in part. It seems to say there is no point in talking about male privilege as it applies to transmen. i don't agree.

Martina, this is not what I was saying.

Furthermore, what is the point of discussing one individual's privilege within a situation, if the awareness of each person's privilege is equally important when it comes down to burning the gender rulebook (this "gender rulebook" is what causes privilege/lack thereof for transfolks, for women, for the LGBT community, so to me we should spend less time pointing fingers, and more time dismantling the root of that problem. To me, when people come into trans/male id threads and simply post at transpeople saying "well don't deny the privilege you have!" to complete strangers of whom they probably know very little, it feels dismissive of the individual's situation and experiences.)? The only purpose I can see is to guilt, alienate and shame one of the two parties; to place the importance of one over the other, and that is what I feel has happened at certain points of this thread when male privilege and transmen have been brought up.

In fact, I think I even highlighted in my responses to you a couple of times that I was not denying the fact that that privilege existed, but that it was far more complex when it came to transmen. We spoke a bit about transmen who pass and so on, but the problem is is it's hard to talk about a generic or stereotypical transman.

I think it is significant that a disproportionate amount of trans people are discriminated against in housing and employment situations in comparison to the general population (in Canada, probably one of the only other groups that deals with this problem to a similar degree (by this I mean statistically, I'm not denying others don't feel this, too) are Aboriginal Canadians, though they are protected by law...unfortunately many don't care), that more transfolks are the victims of violent assault than the general population, that so many still get swallowed up by drugs and prostitution (sometimes I feel like that aspect is unspoken when it comes to transguys) because of these challenges made harder by the fact that they have only artificial legal protection. I think that is important when we discuss male privilege within the trans community.

The other thing is, a lot of transguys on the internet are perhaps no longer in these situations, are not yet in these situations, with some who will never be in these situations, though I'm sure there still are quite a few who are. They at least have the current luxury of computer and internet access, which likely means they are not living below the povert line. There are a lot of transguys out there who do and so they have no voice in these kinds of conversations, may not even have a voice in the real world depending on their situation. They should be taken into consideration. They are significant, and their male privilege is complicated.

Why is it so insignificant to you? Why is it so offensive for me to say that coming up with a hypothetical trans person in an office job is problematic when talking about transguys' male privilege as a generalisation? Denying the circumstances of the trans population just seems really dismissive to me.

I agree that we should be listening to what anyone has to say about male privilege and how it is harmful to women. But it often feels that people rarely stop to actively listen to transmen or male ids without wagging their finger and saying "well, you have male privilege!" or some comment about their transition, who they are, how they should act, how they have this responsibility or that one, where they should exist, where they shouldn't. It pretty much shuts down anything a transguy has to say that doesn't agree with one aspect or another, and if he stands up for himself he must be exercising his male privilege.

Also, why is it problematic when I suggest that speaking about privilege should be a two-way conversation that weighs both sides and not only male privilege transmen carry to varying degrees (in some ways I do agree with what Joe said about it being superficial), but also the privilege that stands against them?

The reason why I suggest this is because in many threads that are either about transguys/male ids or simply in which they participate (like Domn and Jesse were saying), people use male privilege as a way of silencing transmen or talking down to them. Yet in many situations the privilege is a two-way street, because the same people who frequently bring up male privilege in trans threads also have their own privilege and it seems like they don't think that's as important...why is it so absurd and offensive that we focus on ridding ourselves of both? Both are harmful. Both are silencing. Why can't we talk about both?

Btw, everything I've said here about transguys (and all transfolks) and the challenges they face is also applicable to other identities, other minority groups, definitely applicable to many women that is for sure. In many respects we share these problems, which is, again, why I think we should explore the greater issue that causes both privileges and disadvantages on all sides. That, to me, seems more productive than shouting down a given transguy who walks into a trans/male id thread talking about his experience.