Quote:
Originally Posted by BullDog
I am wondering about the fetishizing aspect. Are people saying that some trans guys feel fetishized by some femmes identifying as transsensual?
There are some femmes who identify as stone femmes. There are different types of stone femmes, but some of them who identify that way is in part because they are attracted to/partner with stone butches. I am a stone butch. I do not feel fetishized by a femme identifying as a stone femme. I haven't ever heard of any other stone butches saying they are either, although there could be some and I just am not aware of it. It is her identity and if she chooses to identify that way as far as I am concerned that is her choice just as it is my choice to identify as stone butch.
I do understand what some people are saying about how there are some femmes whose identity seems to be based at least in part by who they partner with, whereas butches and trans men don't seem to do that.
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I wanted to try and maybe answer this (from my perspective). I want to state that just because I feel 'othered' by *my* interpretation of the transsensual femme identity does not mean I do not support those who identify as such, as well as those trans men who do not feel the same way as me. And I respect their right to identify in any way they see fit. Period. (Lest I find my ass being invited from the femme zone to the red zone.)
I think gender and sexuality continue to be confused. For the sake of clarity, I'm only going to speak about the issue from my perspective as a transsexual man who identifies as such. I hear some people who identify as trans, trans guy, transgender, TG, FTM - all who claim to be male/men - transitioned or not - but who do not claim the word transsexual, ever. This is problematic for many reasons, most importantly medical treatment. Some seek to depathologize a medically derived word but that hurts us in the long run (that's a whole other thread) and others feel that the word 'sex' in transsexual furthers the myth that we transition for sexual reasons. It's important here because I want to be clear that I am (and can only speak for) a man of transsexual experience. I do not identify as transgender (which encompasses a WHOLE bunch of identities - including cissexuals). I don't use the ID 'queer' but my politics are very much queer and I will forever remain a staunch ally to this community.
First, I am wondering, because I need to understand, if the transsensual femmes here include in their attraction trans men who have not yet, are uncertain, are unable, or do not wish to seek physical transition. Or are we talking exclusively about men who have completed or are well into their transitions or those who fully intend to? Again, the importance of the usage of the word transsexual - simply, someone born into the wrong body. I do not use that word (as some do) to indicate a stage along a path of transition - meaning
"I was a transsexual, then I had surgery/hormones and now I'm a man." Some use the word transsexual to describe only someone who has completed physical transition. This is not the definition of transsexual.
I think it's important to know if transsensual femmes make these distinctions or not in order to pinpoint a fetishism, if one exists. It's also an important distinction to be made if we're to know if transsensual femme stands alone on its own.
I myself am not offended by a woman who might be attracted to my experience. It is, without a doubt, very unique. But being trans is only part of who I am just as being a femme or a girlfriend or a mother or artist or mechanic is only part of who she is. And so it's concerning (to me) if someone is focused on only this part of who I am as much for her as it is for me. I have to wonder, is there only a
part of her that is attracted to this
part of me? Because I need a complete person to stand up against my complete person. It would also worry me that she would be at high risk of having my experience, my journey, my transition, run all over who she is and I don't want that. (again, this is my concern, not a suggestion that that is what would happen to anyone *here* who identifies as a transsensual femme.)
When it can become, or I should say *
seem* problematic, is when women/femmes choose ONLY to partner with trans men, because I'll tell ya, we're not all alike. And I'm sure there's the belief that the likelihood of finding a guy who isn't an asshole is higher amongst trans men. But I know some trans men you would swear never existed one day in a female body. And then there are some who depart from their past and take on less than admirable qualities as their newfound visibility brings more pressure to perform masculinity the way society tells them it's done. (Slight derail: for anyone who judges these men harshly and/or calls them 'traitors', please try to find the compassion to understand how brutal and dangerous this pressure can sometimes be - because until you've unwittingly tipped off the wrong cissexual man to your transsexualism, say, in the men's room, you have no room to speak).
In my personal experience, I'd say we come in as many different varieties as cissexual men (I have found this to be really eye-opening myself) and to think otherwise is stereotyping (like any other stereotype). So when this topic comes up, I always have to ask myself, 'Would she choose a misogynist, sexist prick trans man over a feminist-ally, sensitive cissexual man?" (or any less extreme example) If the answer is yes, or that she would go out and seek another trans man specifically because he's trans and would not consider a cissexual man who comes along with all the same qualities she seeks, I know she has put me in some special category (one in which I likely don't even place myself) and perhaps does not see me as truly male and we are both going to be unhappy (most especially if she's made this distinction because of some aversion she has to cissexual men).
It's invalidating to us as men (just like the "biological male" terminology brought up on another thread in defense of some trans men who take offense to it). I've always been a man. If I'm not a 'biological male', what then? I'm not trying to *change genders*. The issue was with my physical vs. mental development. I can't change my brain. So I have to change my body. And so I have sought therapy to confirm what I know and am seeking treatment to remedy the incongruency.
To separate me from cissexual men is to 'other' me. To say I'm different. But then, the crux of the matter is, I
am different. And it's impossible for both me and the woman I choose to partner with not to acknowledge this and talk about it. And I want to know that she appreciates my past - the pain and the struggle as much as the 'good things' like my female upbringing/conditioning and realize that, the painful irony, for both of us, is that those things that make me desirable to her have also been a source of a tremendous amount of torment. She has to love and understand all of that. And I imagine that's extremely difficult for a woman to navigate and accept her own desires around that truth. I don't know. I applaud any woman who can stand beside us on our journeys, before, after and throughout our transitions.
The question BullDog raised is not the same (to me) as with women who prefer to date/partner with stone butches who are cissexual. The identity of stone femme, depending on who you ask, carries a lot of different meanings. It can mean they understand and respect the sexual boundaries of a stone butch, that they prefer the sexual boundaries of a stone butch or simply that they themselves (whether femme or butch) have 'stone' sexual boundaries of their own and need to have those respected. I imagine some stone femmes see the identity as their gender. And still to some, stone femme can reflect a preference for partnering with butches who in their opinion possess a degree of masculinity, a hardness in aesthetic, energy, etc. (not my personal use of the term as I believe it perpetuates a hierarchy myth, but trying to list all that I know) Bottom line is, none of this has to do with a person's gender and/or the alteration of physical self in respect to gender and being visible as such.
BUT...
That brings up the question - does a butch (stone or not), who is not male-identified or masculine-identified or female, but simply butch (as a gender), feel 'othered' or 'fetishized' by individuals who prefer to date them only/specifically? I can't speak to that obviously but I'd be interested to know if anyone cares to answer.
I definitely feel more comfortable with a woman being able to date me regardless of my trans status, as opposed to because of it.