Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderD_503
I disagree. There are butches out there who have been assaulted not for being a non-conforming woman, but for being a non-conforming or "unidentifiable" person (adding color to emphasize Ender's choice of terminology).
In that way, many who are identified as "queer" "not straight" or "non-cis" in some way are not necessarily being seen by their assaulter as a woman or even as a man. They are "freaks" which is another aspect of the dehumanization that occurs in violent and sexual assaults against non-conforming people (Fantastic observation, thank you for articulating this).
Of course, there are also butches who do experience rape as women, and who are raped for being non-conforming women (I have edited this portion of Ender's phrase of thought).
(I have edited Ender's preface to their second point, please see original post if necessary; I have narrowed this particular phrase for clarity of thought for my own purposes, so I am able to attend to Ender's focus, logic) . . . Saying that butches who don't id as women or female experience assault as a woman also feels like the aggressor who is trying to "correct their orientation/gender" through rape has achieved their goal both in their own eyes and in the eyes of outsiders looking in on the situation...that male id'd butches or trans id'd butches are "guys until they get raped." In such traumatic cases I think we should be more understanding of how each victim perceives their own assault.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderD_503
(Again, I have edited Ender's post for clarity so I can attend to the focus of logic presented - see Ender's original post if necessary)
Did you even look at the portion of your post that I bolded? I have no problem with anyone saying "many butches" experience blah blah blah, but when you follow that up with claiming that they experience it "as women" and then followed by a comment on how it doesn't matter that they don't identify as women, I have a problem with it. To couple that experience of rape or physical assault or any kind of assault with a claim that it is "as women" and that it is an experience "as women" despite that they don't identify as women, then yeah I'm gonna see that as erasing, and yeah I'm gonna call it out.
That is my point. And yes I do think using that phrase "as women" in conjunction with saying "even if they don't id that way" is harmful.
To clarify again since I may or may not have made it clear enough in my initial post: my objection is to the experience "as women" in conjunction with "even if they don't id that way." My objection is also partially that that phrase was used to address the derailment by talking about the rape of XY men. To me this should be a thread about butch experience, that is (as far as its language) not dismissive. To me the offense is not just that someone brought up the rape of XY men in a thread about "women's experiences with violence"...it's moreso that it's brought up in a thread about butches who were born XX whether they identify or are identified by others are women or not. The bottom line should be butch experience, past and present.
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When I was here last night, reading through this forum discussion, I posted a limited accounting of possessing first hand knowledge of how rape was experienced by me - a person who identifies as a Femme and as a person who has in the past been mistaken as a butch. I also submitted my perceptual view of rape as a tool of power. I want to add that although rape is used as a tool of power, what I failed to communicate is that, rape used as a tool of power is also an
abuse of power.
I felt compelled to come back and enter the discussion again. So I copied and edited two of Ender's comments because Ender and I are friends. I highly respect Ender's acuity, Ender's formal education and Ender's cross-cultural life experience which richly shapes Ender's informed perspective. I value Ender as a member of this community. Ender, I hope you don't mind that I narrowed the focus of your logic in order to call attention to detail that may have been lost within the topic of discussion.
Ender, I like how you framed your persuasive argument in calling to task the very issue at stake: Rape - and how it is used as a tool of oppression; a tool of power to control or cause conformity among members of a population who do not adhere to dominant social standards in highly political ways.
I like how you refrained from using specified identifiers as an ally to those who do not identify within a binary sex and gender spectrum as a "person." When I hear Ender (or any person or member here) frame their persuasive argument with sensitivity to the human element of being a "person," then I know they care about how human beings are affected by coercive power and control of the abusive form of power exerted - specific to the context of this discussion is it framed and called - rape.
I like it that Ender added the specificity of the term "person" because I feel it spans perceptions and includes my experience with the abusive form of power and control - rape. I am a person. I am a human being. I am many things but what causes me to hear Ender's argument much clearer (especially because I can be slow to fathom all dimensions of detailed communication) was the use of the term "person."
I believe that Ender expressed this beautifully: "
That is my point. And yes I do think using that phrase "as women" in conjunction with saying "even if they don't id that way" is harmful."
If I understand what you have articulated Ender, what I hear you saying is this: That if we are to claim that women are viewed as subordinate to the ordinant, that women are accorded no value in socio-cultural dimensions of society (here or anywhere), then the counter-proposition of saying 'that even if they don't ID that way" cancels the power of the first claim. If I have rendered your statement with the intention you build into your statement, then it causes me to feel that you are indeed thinking past the binary limitations that governs the use of language used in the current discussion. For how are we (the general we) allies to those in our own community, the community here online, or the community abroad (for instance, the audience of this specific online membership, I imagine, is far-reaching to those who are reading from the sidelines wherever they reside) if we do not allow ourselves to include diverse perception not akin to our own?
Thank you for investing your time and energy Ender in articulating your perspective and acting as an ally to all, rather than just those who cling to a particular identity. I want to also add that I do not percieve you as lecturing, although my having been schooled formally has conditioned me to attend to lectures. What I want to say is this: I am encouraged by your participatory actions in a highly diverse base of communicators and as a communicator myself, I want to be attentively responsible as possible in various contexts of communication - especially when the subject of discussion is about coercive forms of power and how it affects each of us personally and communally as a whole.