[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I agree. I find it interesting that, even on this site, people who know us and like us and communicate with us regularly will still use he or hy when referring to Scoote sometimes or call her "brother." They aren't trying to be mean or rude or anything....it's almost like the "politically correct" or "when in doubt" default is to go to the masculine pronouns for butch women.

Not trying to open that can of worms....but it's odd to me every time I hear it. Scoote is butch, and she's a she or a her....not a he or a hy. She's not masculine....she's butch...and it's not necessarily the same thing.

I so agree. I have gotten in SO many arguments over this very thing. Butch Women rock and are not men.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Oh, no! Please don't retreat to the cave now. I think the pendulum is just starting to swing back.

I was shocked and disgusted by some recent comments made by friends who used to live in San Francisco. Apparently, there's something wrong with calling yourself a lesbian there. They were quite certain that they would be mocked and ostracized out of their b-f and/or leather community circles for doing so.

I don't want to brag, but I'm considered kinda bad-ass. I'm a Founding Member of the Sirens, which is the NYC women's motorcycle club that has led the Pride Parade down 5th Ave for 25 yrs., and a longtime member and activist with LSM. (the Lesbian Sex Mafia is now the oldest extant women's BDSM org in the U.S.) I even won a Pantheon of Leather award a few yrs ago. I make a living as an artist in NYC, and I never back down from a fight. Even though the reality of my life is very messy and not particularly 'cool', the externals sure look both cool and bad-ass. From that position I emphatically and relentlessly ID myself as a lesbian, ESPECIALLY when speaking to some kid who thinks that sounds as old fashioned as an African American calling themselves 'coloured'. Then I look at that kid with a VERY bad-ass challenge in my eyes and ask, "Do you have a problem with lesbians?" Not one of them has had the ovaries, or the stupidity, to continue the discussion.

Of course I'm in a far different position than a butch woman would be, but my prickly activism on this subject (hopefully) helps give butches some breathing room to claim a masculine FEMALE ID.

I haven't visited the dash site in more than two years because the overwhelming culture there forced reflexive use of male pronouns on butches, and even calling oneself a woman on that site seemed to be shocking. I'm thrilled that there's been push-back against the de-womanizing of butch identity. Please don't leave now. The party is just getting started.

I hated that about the - site...and about how it was pushed when I first found Butch/femme community. I am glad to see this brought front and center. Maybe, just maybe the powers that be will listen now.

Originally Posted by Chazz

My entire butch life, I've battled against the Freudian proposition that a butch is a "misbegotten man".

Outside of gender preoccupied enclaves, the overwhelming majority of the straight world still believes that butches are wanna-be-men. In my RT lesbian community, this is most definitely not the case. We eschew terminology/neologisms that reinforce dominant culture stereotypes that have RT consequences for us as butch women.

If you take the female out of female masculinity, what does that leave us with? How does that serve those of us who have fought a lifetime for respect as butch women?

Labeling butches "masculine of center people" (MOC people), wrings womanhood out of the term butch. Sexual orientation is no longer a defining feature of butch - it's been replaced by masculine gender identity.

I'm glad this schism within BUTCH VOICES has happened. It's shone a light on a dimly lit area that needed full exposure to the light of day. This need not be divisive. What's to argue really?

Why does everyone have to be stuffed, some screaming and kicking, under the same big tent?

I'm content with my lesbian butch, feminist tent. I'm content with others having their gender theory tent. Hell, I'm even content with a Christian lesbian tent for people who sometimes vote Republican. I just don't want to have to room with them. I'll meet everyone around the camp fire, if I'm of a mind to do so.

We are not all the same. We don't all identify the same. We don't all think or believe the same.

THIS IS A VERY GOOD THING ! ! ! !

Let's celebrate diversity - we use to do that and it was great fun.

Diversity makes us strong. We do not have to all be alike.

It does make me sad that somethin that looked like such a wonderful thing for the Butch community is broken, but I agree that this needed to happen.