Quote:
Originally Posted by JAGG
The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.
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Jagg, I know this won't change your view I do feel that I need/want to speak up a dissenting opinion to what you say (as a former fiscal conservative type).
While it certainly is up to each person to ensure they have a safety net, the challenge is what if their safety net is completely gone because the job they had went *poof*, they've used all their savings and nothing is left? What if they went to school to get a decent job, can't find one now that the market is tanked and have an obscene amount of student loans where they are expected to pay $500 a month from the start? Where does this person turn? To me this isn't about bad choices (not any more). It's about events beyond our own control. I've lost jobs and been out of work for a few months but I cannot imagine being out of work for 2+ years. I don't understand how that's an individuals fault.
I would also like to add that we don't have the close-knit communities like we used to. There has been a cultural shift to remote communities and given the discussion currently on this site about "Internet Duplicity" it's hard to be able to ask or give support when faced with challenges like that. So where does the individual turn to at this point? Middle class has been eroded for years (this has been an ongoing discussion in Canada for years -- I think I remember first seeing this in the mid-90s in the Toronto Star or on the CBC).
On the flip side, banks and large industry (most notably the American car industry) claimed that they needed the money to help individuals stay afloat. They got the money and... nothing. Small business, who cannot stay afloat against the likes of Walmart et al., are going under and cannot get loans in a poor market. People looking for work have a market that is impossible to get into. And often, if they manage to get jobs it's at minimum wage (if they are lucky). Individuals, who were willing to work out new payment plans, were ignored by banks. I know of one woman who worked 2 full time jobs for her restructured mortgage program. The bank kept telling her different amounts for her restructured program and every time she paid she was out by x amount (even after asking 3 times for verification as to the amount and when it was due!). They foreclosed on her recently. How is this her fault? Who does she turn to?
I know that this isn't always because of someone not willing to do the work or not having a safety net. I know this because K spent nearly 2 years trying to find work after obtaining a well-regarded Masters degree in a field that is in need of people: social work. She sent out thousands of resumes over the course of that time and got two call backs. Most of the time people didn't even say "We got your resume and will keep it on file" or some other form of acknowledgement. We're very lucky right now: I make a very decent salary and she, during that 2 years, worked for her dad. She managed to get a temporary job with the VA but that has a lot of uncertainty as it could end at any time.
Now, if I lost my job would we survive? Probably not. My savings is enough to pay off everything I owe but losing my job would mean more than that. I'd have to leave the country and probably live with relatives. For me, this whole fight is personal. While I can't be at the rallies I would love to because the reality is... we are the 99%.
I don't think this is a question of living beyond one's means but rather an extended Depression -- and I think it's time we said that it is a Depression. This isn't an extended Recession. This is a fundamental change in the way that the markets work. At one time, these kinds of events caused individuals to rethink and get creative (the old adage of "necessity is the mother of invention") but this feels very different. In a society where mass consumerism has reached it's peak and saturation, and where box stores and the likes of Amazon rule, I wonder if small business and recreation of industries can still exist.
So while some may have mismanaged or misplanned or spent beyond their means, given the size of what is being faced here in the US I don't think that it's true of the majority.