[Kobi]

Tick, I think or trust you know I pick your brain on stuff like this cuz we both tend to pull things apart to see how they work so to speak. Seems we need to get past our initial knee jerk emotional reactions in order to be very clear on what exactly we are facing. The only way, to me, to do that is to keep poking at it, look at it from different perspective and different angles, to keep bouncing thoughts and ideas off one another so we can expand the depth of all that is part of any issue.

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

No, I am not comfortable saying the techs performing the requirements of their job are rapists. I'm just not comfortable saying that. They perform transvaginal ultrasounds all the time. IT is not rape. In my opinion the rape falls squarely on the shoulders of the politicians passing these laws, as well as the state mandating this procedure be done for no medical reason. So to me those are the people responsible for rape.



Appearing on the FBI website, the new definition of rape says: “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

Seems the definition of rape requires very explicitly defined "penetration". The one doing the actual "penetrating" by definition is the tech not the law makers.

If penetration wasnt so clearly defined as a specific act/action, my head might have more wiggle room here.

I think there is a very appropriate, specific word to call this. I'm just not sure rape is it.

It is illegal and unconstitutional. We agree.




However, I am saying that it is not a requirement of the tech's job to perform these ultrasounds. It's not the tech's or the physician's job to follow any other laws put into play by various states regarding first trimester abortions. I am saying by law it cannot be a requirement of their job. I am saying that it is against federal law. I am saying that at some point you take responsibility for the orders you follow.
This is the law of the land-

“FOR THE STAGE PRIOR TO APPROXIMATELY THE END OF THE FIRST TRIMESTER, THE ABORTION DECISION AND ITS EFFECTUATION MUST BE LEFT TO THE MEDICAL JUDGMENT OF THE PREGNANT WOMAN'S ATTENDING PHYSICIAN.”

No other law is valid. People have to stand up and do the right thing. I think the moral choice is clear. However, I don't think anyone will agonize over this. I might be wrong, but it seems that physicians and techs are just falling in line and complying with whatever the state mandates. And when it comes to choosing their job or their beliefs, well jobs are not easy to come by so who can judge? Yet I believe what needs to happen is for physicians and techs to challenge these laws as unconstitutional.

By law you are saying people shouldnt be put in this position and they shouldnt. But, they are. Federal law vs state law vs common people just trying to do their jobs. It sucks.

Yes, we all need to step up and do the right thing....as we see it. Now, here is the dilemma I see and another example of the absolute brilliance of the GOP strategy.

If I was a tech or an MD who performed abortions in these states, I would have, conceivably, an ethical dilemma. I have no idea what my legal options would be i.e. restraining or, stay order etc. But, lets presume I dont have a way to hold off enforcing the law.

As a health care professional, I would have a choice. I can abide by the law or I can deliberately break the law or I could challenge the law....for a small fortune.

If I abide by the law, I might have my own ethical dilemma to wrestle with every single time I did a procedure.

If I deliberately broke the law, as idiotic as it is, I am now opening myself up to criminal prosecution. I am now facing criminal charges, legal fees, possible loss of my license to practice, and jail time. Not only am I, personally and my family, in a quandry now, everyone I employ and I serve are also likely in limbo land as well. So, how does my decision to live my conscience affect those around me?

If I am a tech employed by someone who insists we go by the letter of the law, I can refuse and in refusing, I might myself unemployed. Will I choose to take responsibility for what I feel is right even when it means my job, my income, my health insurance, my home, my way of life etc? What a freakin horrible position to be put in.

If I own a facility that does abortions, for the sake of my business, my employees, and my ethics I may STOP doing abortions altogether. Bingo!

If I am someplace like Planned Parenthood, I could foresee many many millions of dollars being spent to defend myself in court for one reason or another as a result of this. Might I be put in the position of having to weigh the costs of performing abortions vs the costs of other services we provide?
Bingo 2!

I might even decide to shutdown my practice in a hostile state and move it someplace more accepting. What happens to those I used to serve if the service isnt available anymore? Bingo 3!

I am not even going to address the blame the victim shit that is bound to happen i.e. the "if women only did this or that or didnt do this or that" we wouldnt even have an abortion issue to deal with.

What a fucking brilliant strategy. Brilliant.

How do you counteract this? Good question.