[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I should have been more clear. The men I work with often say the kind of garden variety, ho-hum misogynist things that are accepted in this society. They save the really hair-raising violent, racist, homophobic rhetoric for the moments when they think they're, uhh, safe. You know- just us guys.

I am not talking about the garden variety, ho-hum misogynist things, I've tried to make clear within both my posts that I am stating that this extreme "hair-raising violent, racist, homophobic rhetoric" is not something men, in my experience, leave for when women aren't around. I hear it said to women's faces every day. Where I work so much disgusting shit gets said to female employees by both fellow empoyees and customers, it's not even funny. Management doesn't give a shit (just as they don't give a shit when a customer uses the N-word or is excessively racist towards an employee...nothing is done, customer is not asked to leave, all the company wants is money and they couldn't care less how you treat employees). I've heard guys talk about women as nature's punching bag to women's faces, pedophilia jokes get made galore, rape jokes. We had a poster up that was a "name a paint colour" for the paint section of our store. The colour on the poster was purple and some nightcrew ass, for the jollies, decided to suggest "black eye" as the name of the colour..."cause the bitch didn't listen." I had to be the one to go scratch the whole thing out because every time I passed it I was a step closer to kicking the shit out of the guy. Not a thing was said by management or most anyone. "Just vandalism."

I've heard all kinds rape shit, objectification of women of colour and any nasty thing you can think of that I've heard while I'm among guys said to women. What I'm saying is that these extreme things that some see as "shocking," as "something that men say when women aren't around," is in my experience something they do say when women are around.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Once again, is there some reason why you're blaming women for men's misogyny?

I'm not attempting to blame women at all. I don't understand why you're saying "once again." I've done exactly the opposite, or at least that has been the entire insane driving force behind every single one of my posts in this thread. To show the consequences of misogyny and that this isn't some hidden side of men. The portion of my post you snipped is taken out of context, and context is 100% relevant to what I'm trying to say here. Here is the entirety of it.

Their being embarrassed and apologetic is not my experience at all. In fact, where I work and have worked on and off for many years (warehouses, hardware stores etc), as well as the previous industry I worked in, the opposite was the case. Men were and are saying disgusting shit to women's faces. It wasn't and isn't something that they go around saying behind women's backs. It happens in both environments, whether women are present or not. When this shit happens in the work place, it's also management that needs to change. Many women don't say shit (or even defend these guys when someone challenges them) when a lot of similar statements as demonstrated in the article are said to them or about other women.

The fact that this shit is seen as socially acceptable should be addressed here, imo. When guys say this shit or display unsafe behaviour and a woman or transguy goes to management about it because its repeated frequently and often, management in those industries rarely take it seriously. And that should be the point, imo. That this is not some "shocking and earthshattering discovery" that men supposedly say when women aren't around/behind closed doors, but that men do say it when women are around and that authoritative bodies do not take it seriously. I've been hearing men say shit like this about and to women to women's faces since I was a kid, and particularly since I began working as a teen (having worked most in minimum wage jobs...which is perhaps another issue of in what environment and in front of what status of women men feel they can say and do anything without consequence...because there is no consequence in many of these industries). It's time to stop acting shocked about something we already know is happening every minute of every day, and start taking bigger steps to make sure those with the authoritative power to do something about it start taking this shit seriously and put consequences and appropriate education in place.

The bolded bit especially is a part of a single train of thought. When I talk about women not saying shit about the misogynist and horrendous bullshit that are said to their faces in the work place, when I'm talking about some women even going as far as to defend some of these asshats, I'm talking about the consequences of misogyny. Women often don't report this kind of brutal language used in the work place for a number of reasons. They don't report it because they've been conditioned to believe that what these men are saying is, on some level, true. They might not report it because they've been conditioned to believe these men have a right to "free speech," and therefore the right to verbally abuse women. They might be intimidated or frightened. They might not want to make waves in t he workplace. Or they simply might realise that management won't do shit, because they've been in that situation before.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Ender, has it occurred to you that the men who say and have said this shit to you, and in front of you, say worse shit when you're not around? I have no idea what your gender presentation is now, but I'm willing to bet a mortgage payment that they perceived you as a girl when you were younger, and tempered their speech accordingly.

I was talking about hearing men say things to women, specifically. I stated that I have heard men saying these things to women's faces for ages, and especially at my job. I've had friends born into extremely poor neighbourhoods who have also talked about little to no inhibition as far as the language used to discuss women in front of women. It's about me being able to compare what men say to women's faces and what they "say behind women's backs," and I really haven't seen a massive difference even in situations where they didn't realise I was trans. What I was getting at when I was saying that management, for example, don't give a shit when a woman or even a transguy who is openly trans says something is also my commentary on the notion that transguys somehow have the power to change men's attitudes. Many of us really don't if we don't want to live "stealth." The first post I wrote in this thread was more focusing on that, but this also touches on it. I live quite openly as a transguy because being open is important to me so that society stops thinking that there are only two sexes and two ways of being male/female. Cis people aren't the be all and end all, and transmen aren't "once woman/female" and transwomen aren't "once men/male" unless stated specifically by that trans person. But being openly trans has its pitfalls when challenging misogyny among men and is rarely if ever successful among straight cis men. Even when I'm not in an environment where I'm openly trans, if you become known as the guy who challenges misogyny, I've also noticed that the conversation while you're around becomes extremely reserved over time...which has less to do with sex or gender, and more to do with avoidance. At least in my experience.

It's almost expected that men are going to be crude and violent in the construction industry. And that's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about socially-accepted verbal violence towards women. Maybe if I were sitting at some cocktail party with a bunch of cigar-smoking rich corporate white guys I'd have a different experience. But that isn't my experience, and I'd guess that probably isn't most people's experiences, or at least most people I know.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Am I shocked? HELL no. I live with this shit daily. Are my friends shocked when I repeat some of it to them? You bet. Because they may be professors, or executives who are more in control of the environments in which they work. As you mentioned, class certainly plays a part in this discussion, but the intersection of class and sexism hasn't been fashionable to discuss for a good, long while. It's worth mentioning that those of my friends who are the most shocked, for instance college professors, are in the best position to influence thought on this subject, but are some of the most underexposed people I know.

I agree, but I still think the intersection of class and sexism, just as with racism, is a huge part of the discussion, though. It cannot be left out. It's the same reason upper middle class white men still are more likely to be verbally abusive and crude toward a sex worker, minimum wage worker or any woman of colour than a middle or upper class white woman. They may be all sugar and spice in front of their wife or girlfriend (who is also likely white and middle or upper class), but remove her from the equation and you'll see what they're really like. Not as much reservation occurs in front of women who aren't of that class/race combo. We can't ignore that. So when we have a topic that says "what men say about women when they aren't around," then maybe we should consider renaming it to "what men say about women when white middle or upper class women aren't around." In that case the discussion cannot only be about misogyny, but about a specific type of misogyny that is strongly related to race, class and ability. And as for the transguys writing the article...I also wonder what they're class and race are and how that affects their experience and the difference they claim to have noticed.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

If you have a problem with someone holding trans guys to a higher standard when it comes to challenging male misogyny, take it up with the trans guy who wrote the article.

The author writes at the end:

In almost all the examples above, I was too cowardly to speak up against the offending commenters. I was scared of outing myself as trans, and also scared of how these men would react if I rejected what I think amounts to a bizarro form of hospitality - an invitation into the clubhouse.

That's not ok, and this is my commitment to change my behavior. We all need to make a commitment not to tacitly condone these private oppressive rituals of maleness, whether as trans men, as cis-men, as women, and everyone else. Yes, I have roots as a female-bodied and female-identified person, but you don't need to have history as a woman to respect women.

Unlike the author, I don't consider myself to ever have been a female-bodied or female-identified person. Society's perception is another, and if anything I can only talk about what it is like to be perceived by society a certain way. That being said, that doesn't change my commitment. I've been called a "PC/lefty crusader" far too many times and this entire subject is one that enrages me beyond belief. Do I wish that everyone were committed to ending oppression? Yes...but not once will I claim to that anyone has some kind of inherent or absolute duty, and certainly I will never make an assumption about another trans person's body, their body's history and place a "duty" upon their bodies. Assumptions about trans people's bodies should never have a place, just as misogyny should never have a place no matter the discussion.

Anyways, back on to the original topic, aishah's post perhaps says what I've been trying to get at better than I have:

Originally Posted by aishah

as a sex worker, i haven't actually experienced men talking much about their significant others (oddly enough). the worst thing most men say about their significant others to me is that they wish their significant other looked like me, or looked different, or was more adventurous in bed. i have experienced them talking badly about me behind my back and to my face, but the difference is that i am not at their mercy as i would be in a regular job, so i can just refuse to have them as a client (and sometimes blacklist them to other sex workers).

i get that the article is about what men say when women aren't around...i just (as ender and others have pointed out) am not sure this is necessarily a "hidden" side of men, since many of them are perfectly comfortable saying things like this when we ARE around. perhaps for some women it's a surprise but to most women i know it wouldn't be a surprise because men have said these things to our face.

That's pretty much it. I don't see it as a "hidden side" of men, either. It's only hidden if you're of a certain privileged class/race combination, and that shouldn't always be assumed as the common experience.