[blush]

Originally Posted by yotlyolqualli

I don't think that the GLBT community inundating church's would do anything but cause more chaos, more distrust and stronger anti- homosexual feelings.

There ARE church's out there who are GLBT friendly and inclusive. When I left the Mennonite church, I left because I no longer believed the same way they did.

A church, not a religion or a faith, but a church, is founded on like mindedness. Most church's are governed by a constitution, or a written sometimes unwritten, creed of idealogies, rules, dogma and doctrine. I tend to think of church's as a "club". Just as each club has it's own sets of standards and rules, so do church's. Just like in a club, if a club member did something totally against the rules, OR no longer felt the want or need to follow club rules, they would either leave on their own, or be kicked out.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all. Many Christians don't believe that homosexuality is right. They think it's a one way ticket to hell, and you know what? It is perfectly OK for them to think that. What makes that attitude NOT ok, is when they try and legislate their idealogies and doctrine and belief, on those who do not believe the same way.

If we inundated the "unfriendly" and non-inclusive church's, we are doing what they are doing to us; trying to force our own idealogies and beliefs on them.

I feel that us doing that to them, would be as equally wrong as what they are doing to us.

Just my own thoughts.

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

I have always thought that the fastest way to "win" this "fight" would be through the Church.

We have a valid argument in the separation of church and state and how we shouldn't have to make a religious argument for our rights, and that is absolutely correct and I am sure it will work eventually, but....

imagine if every church was gay in the same proportions that the population is gay. If ten percent of every congregation was respectfully, but openly gay.

What if we had a big gay meeting and decided we were all going to google the church closest to our zip code and just start showing up?

You wouldn't have to be disrespectful or disruptive. You wouldn't even have to announce your presence. When new people show up the church folks get ALL up in your business and the first question is "are you married?"

I bet the whole thing would be over in a year.

Now, the obvious question is "are you putting your money where your mouth is, Jenny? Shouldn't you be on your way to Faith United Methodist right now?"

Heck, no. The whole idea terrifies me.

But, still. I bet it would work.

Originally Posted by yotlyolqualli

I am all for respectful protesting. I've done it, even within my own church.

Before I left the church, someone was speaking on spousal abuse and his (guest speaker) idea that the abused shouldn't seek outside help or leave. They should go to their chuch and allow the church to deal with it.

I had just come home from mission work in KY and WV. There I worked as a child and parent advocate at a shelter for abused women and their children. I knew the statistics. I had even met a young woman who had come there, who's father in law was a respected preacher. When she went to him with bruises all over her face and body, he told her she should try to be more pleasing for her husband so he wouldn't need to correct her.

This poor young woman and her little girl popped into my mind and before I could over think it, I stood up where I was sitting, and turned my back on the speaker. I stayed in that position, quietly, while he finished his sermon. I didn't move, I didn't flinch, I prayed.

I've only ever done that one time. I have gotten up and walked out of a church, but that was so over the top for me, that I couldn't let it go unchallenged.


If the LGBT all went as a large group to an unwelcoming church and integrated ourselves with them, waited until they loved and accepted us, then "came out".

Well, if that we me, I would feel decieved. I understand what you are saying, I truly do. But, there are very loving and honest people out there who TRULY believe that all gays are going to hell. In that love, they pray, they encourage but they won't budge from that belief. Most of them are NOT the ones trying to dictate their beliefs through laws enacted against our rights.

There will always be prejudices, always be people who will only ever see things as black or white. That is OK with me, as long as they keep it out of my "life".

And in return, I will keep my beliefs out of theirs.

Isn't going to church, just going to church? At the heart of this argument is the fact that it sounds like many feel a need to announce we are queer to enter a church. If we hide it, we are being deceptive. If we are authentic, we risk being rejected. It's something we confront all the time. Who do we tell we're queer? It's another part of heterosexual privilege.