[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Jo, Ender, you both raise some interesting points. Is tricky stuff with no easy answers.

Feminism, misogyny, sexism, exploitation, objectification are not one size fits all in every situation kind of thing. The definitions, interpretations, perspectives, are as individual as our queer ids can be.

In one way it is frustrating to see the same institutional patriarchial crap as alive and well today as it was in 1973 when Shirley Chisholm said...the emotional, sexual, and psychological stereotyping of females begins when the doctor says, 'It's a girl'."

In another way, we as women have choices now that we didnt have way back then. We have a right to these choices as well as the implications and consequences of them.

The most difficult for me to deal with is the sometimes fine line between what are manifestations of internalized patriarchal bullshit versus what is deliberate, calculated, informed individual choice.

The second most difficult is having the negative stuff being done to women, out there, whether it be in the media, in the workplace, in relationships, in economics, in parenting etc. being replicated within our own community. That just really bites.

I dont have any answers. I just never expected to be dealing with the same stuff and more in my 50's as I did in my 20's. It is discouraging and aggravating and tiring to have to address this over and over and over again.

It's frustrating. Society constantly goes through these phases of becoming more progressive before sending people back 50 years.

I'm not sure it really is a deliberate, calculated, informed choice. How informed is it? Yes, everyone has a right to a choice, but at the same time we can't ignore the social realities that inform that choice. In many ways this parallels the niqab debate in many Western nations...claiming that women have the "choice" and that they shouldn't be permitted to wear the niqab in places like schools and work places. So yes, the woman might have a "choice," but the choice is to defy your upbringing, your family, your culture as you were raised to understand it or be shunned from the rest of society (education, jobs etc.) While perhaps less extreme, the "choice" can be similar for many women in various societies. You are brought up to see yourself a certain way...and if you do something radical according to your culture...no longer subscribe to gendered norms or sexual norms (not talking necessarily about queer/trans community here) you still might have much to lose, if not what little privilege conformity gives you in society.

And what if you don't even question it?

At what point is that "choice" not so much a choice as a reaction to social programming...as is everything. We are all socially programmed and no choice we make is ever divorced from that. It just depends on whether we challenge it or conform to it.

I believe we all should have a right to make a choice except in the instances where it brings direct harm to other human beings. Yet in many respects these choices, as extensions of how these behaviours will affect how these women interact with other generations of women (namely younger women and girls), do do damage.

And if these choices are extensions of upbringing and social expectations, how do societies provide room for them while also making sure that future generations of children are not brought into such a world of gendered social expectations or into a world where it is deemed "the way things are" to sexually objectify half the population based on the sex they were assigned at birth. Where they might have more options to make choices that aren't framed around the ingrained need to focus those choices on the desires of cissexed hetero men.

All I know is the world is seriously too fucked up