[Nomad]

Originally Posted by guihong

Hi, everyone:

Before I begin, I want to be very clear that: 1) this is not a criticism of Medusa and Jack, far from it; 2) I am not trying to start shit (well, a civil discussion is always OK ); and 3) I'm not asking for any changes to the site, as that would be a programmer's nightmare.

Recently there's been some heated threads, and threads gone awry due to a sexist comment or so. And as always on a site like this, there's usually a heavy thread about sexism or oppression.

One "theme" that's discussed often here is "Butches need to be like x, y and z" and "Femmes need to be a, b and c", usually superficial stuff. Closely related is "Femmes want butches who do e, f and g" and "Butches want femmes who do k, l, and m". By and large, whenever that sort of thing pops up, I think we do a pretty good job of handling it.

I think as a community, we're getting away from sorting everyone into "butch" and "femme", and dealing with everyone as an individual. Many of us just can't or won't be boxed into any grouping, despite the site name. I suspect that some of us are really here for broader support for being gay, and not to be any one label.


That's why I just noticed the logo of the site-that "butch" is in heavy black writing, sort of "plain", almost, and "femme" is in pretty pink and really curvasive writing. We've just had several threads about how not every butch is masculine or even tomboyish, and I'm a prime example of a "femme" who wouldn't be caught dead being girly and pink.

I guess I'm just surprised and even a bit amused that the logo itself is very "binary". I am NOT trying to offend or begin a huge fight, but I just felt I wanted to speak out and say "Hey, did anyone else see this?"

hey guihong! kudos for jumping into the deep end of the "civil discussion" pool! soooooo, i sorta understand what you're trying to say and i know it's not supposed to be about anything except the logo. i also know that what you say is your responsibility and that what you're *not* responsible for is what anyone else understands. i have my .03 cents worth of course but i wanted to start out by saying i get that you're trying to create discussion about something you had curiosity about and not anything else. here comes my (highlight, underline, bold, flashing gold stars, warning lights, pixie dust, and some of those flight line people with the vests and orange coney thingys that they wave around to guide planes into position) --> OPINION <--

first, *we* arent sorting "everyone" into butch and femme categories. i wont speak to the reasons for creation of The Planet (that sounds very cosmic as i reread it) because i wasnt a part of it. but if you're going to speak for the greater membership by using the word "we" then i'd like the opportunity, as a part of that group, to say that maybe "we" are here to create and provide a sense of community as people who recognize, understand and acknowledge non-compliant identities of all kinds without demanding that people justify who they are inside of some sort of culturally approved "gay" understanding. we dont all use the words "butch" or "femme" as our own ID words but *i* think people here recognize, (attempt to) understand, and acknowledge those words and the myriad of things they could mean as valid, positive, healthy, beautiful, sumptuous, powerful, etc. in *my opinion*, people who understand that gender is not static, or even 100% definable, are more likely to be equally supportive and acknowledging of every other expression of gender. sometimes i dont even think BFP is about identity as much as it is about a gender fluid *dynamic*. after all, the words "butch" and "femme" describe a whole toy box of things that has nothing to do with a specific community of people and everything to do with simply being human.

second, it's been *my* experience that "dealing with everyone as an individual" happens all the time here. when it doesnt the community is quick to either provide education for honest ignorance or to refuse to consent to oppression all through open dialogue. i agree that no one is here to be labeled or to be sorted. we're not pieces of mail.

third, if we need to talk labels then i want to go on record as saying that i dont want to be labeled "gay". as a femme who has encountered discrimination from inside the "gay" community and been verbally vilified more than once by members of the "gay" community (in two separate cities yet!) because i "perpetuate hetero-power by playing girl" , i come here because i want to take up space in the world as the femme that i am, whatever that might be today, without encountering someone who seems to think it's ok to demand that i justify myself. i dont give a flip what anyone else calls themselves as long as they're happy with themselves and cue me in about their preferred pronouns. i damn well expect equal treatment. i dont ID as "gay". i dont ID as a "lesbian" and on my crabbier days i really dont want support as part of the larger "gay" community while it continues to represent itself as fairly oppressive when confronted with a non-compliant queer femme.

fourth, this discussion is a version of the complaint about reverse discrimination conversation. a privileged person complains that they shouldnt be excluded from the benefits afforded to a minority group member by an organization or institution that specifically works to serve the underserved without understanding that the point behind such services is to provide access to things that the privileged person already has in abundance. there are skads of "gay" sites. why should a site that is focused on a specific dynamic try to be more like them? (in no way implying that *you* feel privileged, behave in a privileged manner, are discriminatory in your behavior or other sucky things. i'm just drawing the correlation. is that the right word? correlation? "grammar mavin to aisle three for a vocab check please!")

fifth, the logo isnt binary. it's designed to work with the background, graphics, home page and etc that it's part of and to show up well on a variety of computer monitors and probably to not be buttassugly. things arent binary. thinking is binary.

sixth, aside from the mathematics thingy which makes my eyeballs go numb so i try not to think about it the word "binary" actually means "consisting of, indicating, or involving two" and not opposite. so maybe we're using the wrong word when it comes down to it.