[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Misogyny is played out everyday. It's seen in male pronouns, in fun and fluff stuff that changes man to butch and woman to femme. It is institutionalized in the fabric of our cultures (on-line and r/t).

Men take up huge amounts of space. They are listened to first, they talk more, they talk over women, they discount women and they perpetuate violence against women. JUst watch the Tough Guise video and you will get an idea of what I mean.

It may not be a popular idea, but I do believe that butch/femme space is first a female space. It started that way. Over the years as gender identity came into the culture, this female space has (thankfully) expanded to be inclusive of the varying gender identities that compromise what is now a female queer space.

When I first came on line I was absolutely shocked and dumbfounded to be called he/hy just because I was butch. Only the masculine part of me seen and the woman part of me discounted and/or ignored. I actually came very close to not participating in on-line b/f space.

Male id'd and transmen do change the dynamic of any space they occupy. It's a fact. Men and women act differently. Men and women think differently. Men and women are different. Testosterone changes the way you think and act.
I don't understand why it is unreasonable to suggest that male id'd and transmen step up to the plate and acknowledge their privilege and how it affects interactions. I don't understand why it is unreasonable to expect they will be vocal about dismantling (white) male privilege in all spaces and particularly b/f space.
I think that's all I got right now.

Toughy, Bulldog, Sharkchomp, Jess, Atomic, Met... all of you really thank you for your sharing your thoughts. I think this is an important topic to discuss. I am very heartened that our community is trying to talk about things that may be difficult to talk about for many.

Toughy, when you say butch-femme is primarily a female space; it started that way.... Do you mean that butches and femmes started with female bodies or is there more to it? You and I are in the same age group and I think we both have identified as butches for all of our adult lives. When we came out, I think in different parts of the USA, The Second Wave of Feminism was the self and media designated leaders of gay womens culture. The term "lesbian" was just beginning to be used in a positive fashion. Many many gay women had trouble acclimating to the word "lesbian."

We did not have a very large consciousness about Trans stuff. To be Trans was not an option for most. How would many of us know we were shades of a third gender or gender that is not static? We did not. I found myself in the camp of Butch-Femme. We were discarded and marginalized by the general population of Lesbians. I know you know this stuff. My point is I believe that many in the generation before us or the generation when we were baby butches, there was no room for female masculinity nor a gender outside of the binary. If you mean the butch-femme community started with people that were born into a biological/cisgender female body, I agree. If you mean female was the primary gender, I agee but I also think if we had more options at that point in time, "female space" would not have necessarily been the default.

Yes, misogyny is in the very fabric of our culture. Like you and Bully I do believe we have a responsibility to examine our masculinity. All of us of the butch bent have that responsibility. Not just Transmen and/or male identified. The larger culture is still assigning masculinity to "men." I think most of us in here know masculinity is not purely a male characteristic.

As for T changing the way we think and act, for me the jury is still out. I take T. I am much more vigilant about how I treat women, femmes. I have not turned into an angry, abusive, sexed crazed "man."

Before I started to take T, it was found I had high levels of testosterone for a female bodied person. I am willing to bet we have female identified butches in our community with higher then "normal" amounts of testosterone in their body. Are they thinking and acting differently?

I'm not trying to pick on you Toughy. I have read many of your posts because although I may not agree with you sometimes, I respect your mind, your intelligence.

As for the White Male Privilege, it does exist. I am not trying to fault anyone. I think Bulldog is just saying we need to start admitting to ourselves that male privilege does exist, and how will we begin to break it down in our community and assist in erradicating old and ignorant ideas and behavior starting with ourselves.

I think if we take a closer look we will find that most butches have been on the receiving end of some male privilege. And, we have also known discrimination because we did not look like the "norm" for a female bodied person.

Finally, "White Male Privilege" and "Male Privilege." I think it is a bit of a different experience for butches, Transmen that are "other." How many black or brown men do we seen in the prisons? At the head of Corporations, in lead positions?

Like Jess says, the Golden Rule is a pretty good start.