[Medusa]

I'd like to add something, if I may.

First, this is not meant as patronizing at all but I truly need to say that this might have been one of the best debates I've seen on this site in a while. Not because it is without clash, but because I see folks truly trying to have a conversation. This is a tough one, no doubt, but I believe there has been positive movement in how we discuss this issue on this site. (Yes, "this issue" being Lesbian-bashing and gender intersections.)

Also, I'd like to give voice to the fact that I, too, do not want to see this site turn into open season on Lesbians. I identify as a Lesbian and this is my space too. Many people here do identify as a Lesbian or have identified as Lesbians in their gender history so I'd hate to see that level of vilification turned inward.

I think the thing that is important to remember is that everyone of every gender on this site has a history, both with themselves and with people and groups of other genders. I think we can all agree that our experiences color the way we see people and thus, can lead to prejudices, stereotyping, and labeling people against their consent.
Are we wrong to develop prejudices toward other people or groups of people? The short and politically correct answer would be YES!!!!
The truth, though, is that this happens sometimes whether we want it to or not.
I don't believe for one second that there is a single person on this site who has never looked at a Fat person and thought their fatness was "gross" or that they were "smelly" or looked at a group of Black males walking down the road at night and clutched their purse or made fun of "little people" or thought that a High Femme was "playacting" or thought that an old person probably didn't have sex any more or insert any number of bullshit things that can go through the heads of human beings when they are young or unevolved or low-level thinkers or hell, when they've not checked their prejudices.
These are, of course, extreme examples but I'm trying to illustrate that every one of us has some level of context about other groups that we may need to work on.

And why did I illustrate with such extreme examples? Because these are things that I can think of that we could form prejudices on that MAY IN FACT have some truth or history behind them.

For example, don't tell me that every single fat person in this world smells like a rose because we all know that's bullshit. Why? Because not every HUMAN BEING smells like a rose.
Don't tell me that a group of Black males walking down the road at night has NEVER grabbed a woman's purse. Why? Because HUMAN BEINGS in groups have grabbed women's purses.
Don't tell me that every person over 80 is still having sex. Why? Because some HUMAN BEINGS over 80 can't or won't or don't want to.

This is clumsy of me but I'm trying to say that when people give examples of things that have happened to them by Lesbians or Transmen or Femmes or Butches and then someone from the group that the example was given of comes in and tries to basically re-write history and say that it has NEVERRRRRRR been that way, IT. MAKES. ME. CRAZY.

Because an attempt to sterilize real, live experiences so that people can feel better about their own personal identity is complete and utter BULLSHIT and it's a waste of time on these threads. And you know what else it is? It's a fucking LIE.

If a Stone Butch comes on and and says "I've had several Femmes try to penetrate me against my will. WTF is that?" and some Stone Femmes come back in the thread and basically try to tell that Butch they are offended and that it never happend and "Femmes don't do that" then, inevitably, start reporting posts and finger-waggling about how we are allowing "Stone Femme-bashing", it feels like we are being asked to participate in magical thinking.

I have felt that way a couple of times with "Lesbian-bashing" concerns, just as I have with "Trans-bashing" and even "woman-bashing" in general. (using quotes to distinguish language that has become part of our dictionary here, not because I don't believe in it or that it happens)

Conversly, people sometimes need to do a little work around how they talk about their history here. Not cool to be all "most Femmes do x, y, z" or "Back when I was 20, most Butches were this, this, or this".
Still, I submit that generalizing is sometimes the language that people have and while it may suck and piss us off, it is OFTEN valuable to listen to what is being said versus HOW it is being said. I'm always curious how people got to the opinion that a group of human beings thousands of people deep are all "insert attribute here".

Doesn't mean we don't get to call people out when they made ridiculous statements and it certainly doesnt mean we need to put up with any bull where stereotypes are held up as the "truth". I'd just like to think we can move forward, not even necessarily while agreeing with one another, if we concede that everyone is coming from a different place, all funnelled into this weird-ass little microchasm that has a long, entrenched history of gobbledygook that we've learned and unlearned a thousand times.

I personally struggled with creating a Lesbian "zone" on this site. In my mind, this entire site is a Lesbian zone and I felt that the zone was privileged or even separatist in that I felt it tried to divest itself of the yin and yang of what makes this site space special (that of honoring the Butch-and-Femme-as-Nouns dynamic).
And this is where my own history of being around Lesbian separatists who wanted nothing to do with Butch/Femme/Trans or even women with any level of masculinity intersected with my "zone" feelings. So, this is me giving a live example of how our histories and lived experience sometimes inform us unfairly or fairly, depending on how you process it.

Anyway, I'm rambling and forgot my point here but I'd like to keep going in this thread in all of its winding roads. Good discussion.