[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Hack

OK, let me clear up the dog poop reference...in the Netherlands, they DO NOT pick up their dog poop. In fact, my girlfriend there thought it very odd that I would want to pick up after her dog when I was out walking it. And the first time I took her dog out, I discovered NO ONE picks up after their dog there. lol

I think that the last administration (I refuse to call him President Bush because he didn't win fair and square) did a huge amount of damage to our image abroad. Some of the most positive interactions I had with Europeans were about Obama. I had one of the poster-ized Obama tshirts that I wore out a few times while there, and got a lot of nice comments or smiles or friendly looks.

I happened to be in the Netherlands during their Liberation Day observance (as in World War II) last year, and I was always very moved at the mention of all the Allies -- US, Canada, British, etc. -- during the ceremonies and tributes. In fact, while wandering around a small village in Belgium, we went in to a church yard that was surrounded by cemetary. It was amazing to me that the WW II era graves of Canadian and RAF pilots who were shot down during the war were the best tended graves in the place. My girlfriend told me that it is a point of pride for the church, and in fact, the entire community, that they honor the soldiers who fought to liberate Holland and Belgium.

Yet, I get your reference that the US seems to have this need to be the world's policeman, or bully at times. I think there are times when we need to go flash the hardware and show some muscle just to keep the peace, so to speak. But I think when we get mired in situations we shouldn't be in because we are no more than a schoolyard bully, yes, that does hurt us abroad.

And my statement about making the world economy go around wasn't just about me. It was about Americans in general feeling that way. I don't think you can argue that Americans are not the most consumptive people on the planet. That is how we are viewed -- at least that is what my, albeit small, sampling of Europeans told me.

Jake

Yes, Mr. Bush (I also refuse to call him that which he stole) did a lot of damage to the image of US citizens abroad. But we need not go very far back to see that he hasn't been the only one. The US has used its military power to intimidate and set their own agenda on many a country. And if we go back as far as the Iran/Contra affair era, we can see how sometimes it has bitten it back. I am a avid reader of Noam Chomsky because he clearly illustrates this side of the "Empire".

Now don't get me wrong, my heart is split between the US and my country, so I harbor no hard feelings or am coming from a position of resentment. What I have done is taken a step back and look at US foreign policy and see it for what it has been.

Going back to the original article, I think this is where it comes from, from this exceptionalism that is taught early and often.

I am touched by your story about the observance of Liberation day, I think it exemplifies the best the US has to offer. Thank you for sharing that.

As for the dog poop, I think that is gross and must be a cultural thing in the Netherlands.

Us citizens are some of the most consumptive people in the planet, yes, but if we go by the numbers, China has taken the lead both in production and consumption.

I am not a believer that this is a good thing, but then again, I am against any sort of savage capitalism.

I think to me what sticks out about the article and is relevant to what we are taking about here is this:

"Still, what is the meaning of learning and the purpose of education? Do schools exist to develop critical thinkers and productive and active global citizens, or do they exist for the purpose of preprogramming unquestioning civilians and obedient and passive consumers, including packaged wars? Historian Howard Zinn believed knowing history was less about understanding the past than changing the future. In regards to the forced Indian removal policies and genocides, the Sand Creek and Wounded Knee massacres, the Luzons, the Dresdens, the Hiroshimas, the No Gun Ris, the My Lais, the IR655's, the Maryknoll nuns' and Jesuit priests' murders, the Guatemalan mass graves, the Sinuas, the Basras, the Abu Graibs, the Bagrams, the Hadithas, the Al-Mahmudiyahs, the Fallujahs and the Gardezs - can the United States afford to school more generations in American exceptionalism?"

Again, thanks for engaging in this conversation, your opinion illustrates a side that needs to be looked at.