Quote:
Originally Posted by AtLast
I don't think that "all" of us stick with butch-femme as masculine-feminine in this manner. Your premise feels faulty to me. I could be wrong about this. Butch also refers to gay men with certain parameters and I use these terms in some instances for heterosexuals. Although, these examples are based upon sexual orientation and I think we within the B/F community have a much broader interpretation because we seem to be a "sub-culture" in which gender theory has become a part of our queer identification- which for me, goes to the evolutionary aspects of my prior post.
Now, I have to say, however, that portions of our sub-culture may not have done this exploration. I wish I could refer to some studies here, but can't and I know that I could have a bias going on. Although, I am from "olden days," personal experience with transgendered individuals as well as an intergendered relative brought some of these questions, issues and ways of expanding gender came to me fairly early. Having to keep up with issues of both gender and sexuality has also been part of my professional life.
I know (and have seen) instances of unfamiliarity with current gender theories occurs here on this site for example. And most certainly on the dash site as well. Yet, because we discuss just about everything on this site, I don't think it takes very long for someone that joins to begin to see that matters of gender are part of this community and they can take information from here and start to educate themselves. Consequently, I don't think that the B/F community does use masculine and feminine as interchangeable with butch-femme in the manner I think you are doing.
Butch for me has masculine constructs blended with feminine constructs, for example but I am not male, I am female. My femininity is of a masculine nature as far as traditional definitions. But m presentation overall is far from the traditional contexts of gender roles. I can't speak to this for other butches or for femmes within their personal expression.
The other thing that comes to mind for me is that for a good long time, butches and femmes met with negative judgment from the more radical or separatist lesbian community. This is not true of the entire spectrum of lesbians, but could have had an effect in butches and femmes needing to defend their "brand" of lesbianism. Today, we have different concepts about the whole sexuality area as well. All part of that evolution.
I just don't experience any of this labels, terms, identifications as traditional at all at this time of my life. And to be honest, I see this within my peer group of B/F identity. I also see this among younger people more and more.
I can't make generalizations about any of this. If there is anything I have learned from people interacting on our websites, is that they are quite diverse in relationship to masculinity and femininity no matter their gender identification.
I don't experience this community using this language in any other way except to communicate ideas with terms that, although having diverse meanings, are common among us. But as in all communication, taking the time to find out what a person means by these terms in relation to what is being communicated is important. But if we don’t have a common language, how can we even begin to articulate our thoughts and feelings?
We don’t all have the same concepts of masculinity and femininity at all.
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Here I disagree with you somewhat. I think that on this forum and in the greater butch/femme community, there is still a strong tendency to equate butch with being largely masculine and femme largely feminine. I think there are who think otherwise, but that are not the majority. Or at least we all act as though it's self-evident, or that it's the norm in our community, when it isn't. If we take any thread around here (for example, one a while back on why butches were attracted to femmes) that deals with butch/femme attraction, the discussion is often heavily weighted by assumptions of one identity being masculine and the other feminine and the contrast between the two.
I see a pattern that happens fairly consistently on the forum, even among long time members, where we get into these topics of the nature mentioned above or where we talk about each others' identity, and a lot of people go on about it being the "masculinity" of the butch or "femininity" of the femme that attracts them. Or that they felt butch as a kid because they liked masculine things and feminine females, or femme because they liked feminine things and masculine females. Then another user, who doesn't fit the stereotype, comes along and calls bullshit. Or they come and say that they don't think such and such is tell-tale of being butch/femme, because they were different as a child. Then there's a tremendous amount of backpeddling and debating until we all agree once again that "masculinity" and "femininity" are subjective. Butch and femme are subjective. Etc. etc.
It's a pretty distinct pattern/occurrence here and the fact that it keeps happening, I think, demonstrates that our community is able to accept certain concepts when they're explicitly stated, but that we fall back into our original assumptions and stereotypes about the dynamic as soon as they fade even slightly from sight.
But it always requires that the people who don't fit the stereotype come back and perpetually reassert themselves. If they didn't, what would happen?
As far as the international community outside this site, if we look at the recent split that occurred with Butch Voices over there in the states and the altering of language so that the conference encompassed "masculine of centre" individuals, again we see heavily weighted language. What is masculine? Who is masculine? Is the conference now for masculine femmes and not for feminine butches? I know that they've given their reasons, but there are a lot of underlying implications that go unaddressed in the greater community.
If we look at even the literature on butch/femme, masculine female, transmale etc. identities both in the 90's and in the 2000s/present day, again, we see heavily weighted language that relies on masculinity and femininity. When it discusses butch/femme dynamics it still discusses masculine vs. feminine. Our communities around the world still reflect that, even if some of us have come to see it differently. It's really only literature that discusses butch or trans identities specifically (and only in some cases) that really start to ditch the terms masculinity and femininity and only navigate them as far as what they mean in the heteronormative world. The majority of modern literature that discusses the modern butch/femme dynamic still operates on the understanding of butch/femme as masculine/feminine.
So I really don't think that's disappeared from our community. In fact, I think it's still pretty prevalent. That's my two cents, anyway.