[Cin]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

This part of your post is more what I'm talking about and hoping from this discussion! My question in response to your question (maybe I have too many fucking question? ) as far as what what words would I/we use to describe butch or femme: Why do we need preset words to describe butch and femme? Why can't they just be what that specific butch or femme describes themselves as? Considering the amount of language the b/f community and queer community as a whole has already created to describe itself, I don't think it's really a problem to allow each person to define themselves in whatever terms they'd like. Which, to me, means dropping the assumption that we all see the dynamic as one between "masculine" and "feminine" identities, or where they are mixed an identity that is more "masculine" and one that is more "feminine."

Well the problem I see with butch and femme as the language used exclusively without the precursor of masculine and feminine is that the terms butch/femme together as a dynamic and butch and femme separately as individuals already comes with preconceived notions and lots of baggage. If you are looking for vocabulary that can assist with dropping or unlearning the assumption that the dynamic of butch/femme is about masculine and feminine queered then I really think you need terminology that is not already rife with meaning.

Over time, butch and femme have gone from not particularly controlled terms, to very controlled term, and now have come back full circle to not particularly controlled terms.

I think they are controlled enough terms that if you are looking for a way to identify and/or understand yourself and others that does not rely on an understanding of traits and characteristics directly related to the traits and characteristics understood as masculine or feminine you might want to look elsewhere.

In some respects I see masculine and feminine as remnants of a time when they were heavily controlled within the community. Part of my point is that if we continue to use them, then it should be on an individual open/limitless sense, rather than using them as set defining terms for the dynamic.

I would argue that many of already do this. But perhaps I am wrong about that.

I also fully understand where this becomes problematic for myself (and perhaps for some others). As I mentioned before, what then defines my attraction to femmes if not femininity, and a femme's attraction to butches if not masculinity? I guess I'm coming to closer to feeling like the answer to that, for me, is how each one actually defies the socially accepted categories. Perhaps (speaking for myself only of course) it's that complete denial of socially accepted masculinity/femininity coupled with individual physical characteristics (that neither define butch or femme) one just happens to find attractive.

Is that not the same as masculinity queered and femininity queered? Is that not what people mean when they speak of how hot they think masculinity in a female body is? Or how femmes queer femininity and find it so much more comfortable when it is in a queer context rather than in a heterosexual one?

All that can just be "femme" or "butch," no?

Well yes of course it could. It could also be tap shoes and ballerina slippers if we want. The same problems will exist of course. First butch and femme come with masculine and feminine baggage so is probably not the best choice. Yet it would only be a matter of time before tap shoes and ballerina slippers came with the same baggage. I think language is not the problem as much as certain way of thinking.