[Esme nha Maire]

I'd written a short essay then Loki (or some other trickster god) ate it just before I completed it :-(

Short version of the lost chunk - media items will never be precise - there is a lot of assumed common understanding due to assumed common experience in ALL language, in order to keep sentences short and pithy. Some folk love to nitpick the perceived failings of pithy articles, assuming that only they have the wit to understand that the subject needs a more in-depth treatment in order to be fair. Some article-writers seem to be unaware that their articles cannot be fully accurate without putting off most of their intended audience, whilst others seem not to care. Ellen may have been criticising a certain kind of male behaviour by aping it for comedic effect - which is a known good way of tackling difficult subjects, sometimes. I do not know Ellen or her works or the situation reported well enough to feel in any way sure.

To continue...

We are free to think of others what we like in the privacy of the interior of our own heads - including lusting after boobies, muscles, or whatever. The issue is, IMO, to do with politness and entitlement. I don't in the least mind being chatted up by guys so long as they are polite throughout - including just after I've politely declined.

Given that we we are all sexual beings (those of us who are), and have our preferences in those we see as potential sexual partners (irrespective of whether the object of our desire reciprocates), how the hell else is one to think about those preferences without some form of objectification taking place at some point in proceedings?

I think that the problem here is again one of the way that language works - we often initially make a statement that is roughly what we mean, then clarify with follow-up statements, in cases where what we are talking about is complex. Sometimes it takes many, many clarifications to cover a subject correctly and adequately. In general social interactions -which are VERY complex - we do not have time to do all the clarification stuff. Assumptions and body language has to do a lot of that work. Can you imagine trying to chat someone up by explaining PRECISELY, in full, how you feel about them, the very first time you open your mouth to them, without taking an absolute age about it and losing the moment? In practice what folk tend to do is fling something out there, see what comes back, and (hopefully) hone in on things from there. It's a negotiated verbal dance to see where the outcome is going to be.

On the subject of sexual social interactions, I'm minded of the old joke about "well, if you wanted to go there, I wouldn't be starting from here...", If 'there' is equitable polite interaction that causes no distress to anyone and 'here' is how things are currently. Yes, we all live in societies with a long and unfortunate history of doing large chunks of the population a disservice by dint of being born with some characteristic or set of characteristics or other, and it's not that long since women were regarded as chattels even here in the UK (my grandmothers were born into such a world). And it's both important and necessary to question old social habits and try to replace them with better ones. But it's also important to try to avoid replacing one unpleasant regime with another.

There is far too much casual violence against women in the world, even today, here in the UK. There is far too much casual expectation that us women are here only for the benefit of males, and that our main worth is either in bed or as cheap labour, or to produce offspring for males. There is too much casual assumption that what women do does not matter, and is not so important as what men do. Ultimately, it boils down to a society having ingrained in it the notion of 'might is right', with all of the ugliness that that entails. And it's also true that women are not the only victims of societal attitudes and strictures. Clearly, society needs to change in order to improve things for us all.

Feminism is a movement that seeks to help us all address those issues, to make society a nicer and fairer place for all, irrespective of gender - but it started from a place of womens extreme disadvantage in the world as was. I have counted myself feminist from the moment I first read something on the subject, at age fifteen, IIRC. It blew my mind. It was wonderful! Yes! Here were people actually thinking aloud about how to make the world better rather than just going 'shut up, and know your place!'.

I was as intellectually in love with feminism as I was with the sciences, until the realisation dawned on me that feminists, being human, can be just as fallible as anyone else, and some can be so passionate in favour of trying to right the wrongs that have been inflicted against women for so long that they are blind to the wrongs they might inflict on others. In particular, in my case, I suffered greatly due to the currency given certain notions about transgendered folk by Mary Daly and her pupil, Janice Raymond, that were in fact no more than attempts to justify their own bigotry - in my opinion (and yes, I have read Raymonds book thoroughly AND looked at a sample of the sources quoted therein, and I am disgusted with both Raymond and Daly as a result). But that does not diminish Daly's achievements in getting us to look at the very language we use to communicate and see how ingrained bias against women is. The woman was, IMO, a genius - but a flawed one. Can't say as I'm perfect, either.

Women have been stigmatised in society for such a long time, and in languages. In class last week, we learnt the names of the parts of flowers. I learnt that the stigma is the entrance to the ovary in flowers. I suspect some of you may be thinking pretty much what I was thinking when I learnt that. If something is stigmatised, it is thought lesser or undesirable, and here is the word stigma referring to female genitalia, in essence. Hmmmnn..

So, what do we do about it? Rant and rave? Insist evryone immediately switch to other behaviours and other ways of talking about things? Would any of us expect that to happen? Would any of us actually DO that? Probably not.
What we can, and are more likely to do, is to try to modify behaviour in a more acceptable direction. Like being more polite to each other. Treating people as people, irrespective of whether some of their bits are like beacons to our libidos. Not imagining ourselves to have some kind of innate entitlement over others bodies (if someone voluntarily grants such entitlement to another, whether conditional or otherwise, that's another matter!) . Rinse and repeat over the generations,and hopefully society will improve over time, even if it does not right now.

Personally, then, I think it's not so much a case of doing away with objectification that's needed, as the impoliteness of objectification being expressed in inappropriate manners in inappropriate social situations being done away with that's needed. Does a nice pair of breasts attract my attention? Oh, my, yes - I am a lesbian, after all! Would I gawp at them in public as if the rest of the person they belong to didn't exist? Absolutely not! Would I behave differently were I in bed with their owner? Sure! - but I'd still be considerate of her as a human being, just as I'd expect her to be considerate of me as a human being.

Politeness is the answer to a LOT of social problems that aren't caused by sheer bigotry, IMO.