Quote:
Originally Posted by betenoire
From one Atheist to another (unless I'm remembering wrong and you're not one, in which case I apologise but still want you to answer cuz I think this is wicked fun):
How does one explain "manifestations of the Holy Spirit" (ie - "slain in the spirit" "speaking in tongues" etc) without the existence of God?
I was raised in a charismatic evangelical church (Pentecostal) so that stuff was an every day occurrence around me (well, Wednesdays and Sundays since those were the days that I went to church) and I don't for a minute believe that anybody was consciously faking anything. We're talking about people who on the basic level were sincere and well-meaning and convinced.
So how does it happen? Is it like a group-think thing (which I guess is more about psychology than about science, although I guess psychology is a kind of science, and now I'm confusing myself) or a "mind over matter" thing (like if you believe something hard enough the brain can do all sorts of neat things) or a really emotionally exited neurons firing around thing, or kinda like hypnotism?
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You remembered correctly, I'm also a non-theist. Although I wasn't raised in a Pentecostal church, I was raised in both the AME (African Methodist Episcopalian) and Southern Baptist traditions. In the early 1980s until I came out in the early 90s I was a Pentecostal. The issue of speaking in tongues is interesting. And perhaps in describing what I think was going on for me, it will shed some light on why I am so committed to the idea that there is *some* kind of reality and that this reality is naturalistic. It's not because I don't *want* to believe that there's something else, it's because I do.
I do not think I was consciously fooling myself. I don't think that people are consciously fooling themselves. In 1980, when I had my first experience of speaking in tongues, I truly felt born-again. I was part of God's family and my having the gift of tongues was a sign of that. No matter how bad my home life was, no matter how mercilessly my fellow students picked on me, it didn't matter because my reward was in heaven and I was filled with the Holy Spirit. I believed it with every fiber of my being and if there was any doubt in me, I knew that was just the Enemy trying to turn me away from the Light. At the time, I knew that for a fact. I was more certain of that than I was that the Sun would come up tomorrow. God could decide, at any point, that the Sun wouldn't come up tomorrow but God was constant and could be relied on.
I'm sure the language sounds familiar. There are times that I miss believing so hard that I knew and I knew *why* I knew. I knew because it was self-evidently true. I couldn't make these things up, could I? I wasn't making them up. I really did believe these things to be true.
It was in the process of deprogramming myself and walking myself back from a world where there really were demons (yes, I believed in demons) that I had to find something to hold on to, some way to orient myself. I decided that this would be the physical world. The physical world is what every one of us inhabits. You can believe what you wish, you can believe that this is all the Matrix but at the end of the day, if you walk up to the top of a tall building and step off of it, everyone here knows what is going to happen and using a pretty simple equation, we can describe the arc of the last few very exciting moments of your life. You can, in fact, actually count on that and no ideology or religious belief changes that. The most dedicated devotee of The Secret or the most fervent follower of Jesus is notgoing to step off of a building. This is what I call the point of least common agreement. You and I may be atheists, someone else reading this may be a Christian or a Jew or Tibetan Buddhist or Dianic Wiccan but we *all* agree on what happens when you step off a building. We may not even agree on *why* it happens, but we all agree that it happens. At base, that is reliable enough for us to treat it as reality. That became my life raft and with it I came back to the shores of the real world.
It was because I was able, so easily, to make myself believe that my being queer as a three-dollar bill was a result of a demon that I had to start small. It took me a good ten years, into my early thirties, before I felt like I had some kind of grip on the real world. I no longer look over my shoulder or wake up in the middle of the night worried "what if you're wrong and the Rapture is going to happen this next minute".
In the process, I came across the idea of the mind as a belief engine. I read that and it seemed elegant--in the sense that it was a relatively simple idea with deep explanatory power. What follows is based upon that simple and powerful idea.
I think what is happening is, in part, social phenomena. We want to belong. No matter how individualistic we like to think of ourselves, in the end we really want to belong to a group. In the church I attended one of the rites of passage, if you will, was being possessed by the Holy Spirit. I think that we *convince* ourselves something is happening when it isn't. One cannot help but notice that speaking-in-tongues never actually yields an actual human language. The sounds are what people might *think* as ancient (read Biblical) languages but they're all wrong. It's largely just random sounds more akin to the babble of a baby than even a rudimentary pidgin or creole language.
The human brain is an extraordinarily powerful organ and, for better or worse, it is stuck within itself. By this I mean that we can only use our minds to understand our minds.
Cheers
Aj