[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Virago

In NYC in the early 80's there was a bar called The Duchess. All us dykes were androgynous then. All in our mantailored shirts and jeans. We were a by-product of the Women's Movement in that era, so there was NOTHING allowed that even MIMICKED male/female relationships. Butch/Femme was highly looked down upon. If you DARED walked into the bar in a dress, you were shunned. And Sex....sex was also very equal back then. There was NO penetration at all (remember, nothing that mimicked male/female). Basically side by side mutual touching and rubbing.

I am so glad that part of those days are over.

Originally Posted by Soon

I'm so curious about this! (of course, the sex part haha). So, was this an unspoken rule? Or was it discussed among women generally (outside the bedroom) that penetration was not cool and 'off the table' for lesbians? Or was it just understood once you were coupled with someone and 'in the moment'?

It's hard for me to imagine. I was just thinking how gay men would never have a 'rule' like this around their sexual activity. It's interesting how the politicized the bedrooms of lesbians were (are?).

Last question (for now):
So, all the butches and the femmes went into a more andro mode. Were there ways to suss each other a bit and still couple up despite the more neutral outerwear?

Fantastic thread -- love reading everyone's experiences and will share my (kind of limited) ones!

My long-term ex came out in the late 50's, 60's and used to tell me that in her circle, you were either butch or femme. If you were butch, there was basically only stone as a choice.

No touching, absolutely no penetration for the butch and the rules were that the butch must only please the femme partner. they even had a word for it: KiKi. No self-respecting butch would want to be called KiKi (K"I" K"I" was how it was pronounced). *I just remembered, that the phrase laughed about with her friends was butch in the streets, femme in the sheets and it was said with derision.

It took 10 years of being like this in our relationship before she allowed me to push some boundaries with her (it goes without saying but I will say it anyway: her choice, her decision, her curiosity). She did feel like she was KiKi then but did it anyway because no one knew what we did in the privacy of our bedroom (and she found that she really liked it).

She used to talk about the cop raids on bars back then and that every one had to wear at least one piece of women's clothing or they would be hauled to jail.

It was very difficult for her when everyone became andro in the late 60's, early 70's. It did not fit the rules of how it was in the early days and in her crowd. She loved that I was femme and even though we were looked down upon at some lesbian events in the 70's (because flannel shirts were never my fashion choice), we both loved being butch and femme.