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Originally Posted by Soon
I'm so curious about this! (of course, the sex part haha). So, was this an unspoken rule? Or was it discussed among women generally (outside the bedroom) that penetration was not cool and 'off the table' for lesbians? Or was it just understood once you were coupled with someone and 'in the moment'?
It's hard for me to imagine. I was just thinking how gay men would never have a 'rule' like this around their sexual activity. It's interesting how the politicized the bedrooms of lesbians were (are?).
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Wonderful questions, Soon! In response to this one, was it an unspoken rule or discussed? I would say, in the way that any culture develops its norms and customs, it was both. It was basically an unspoken way of behavior. You just learned it by dating. (and realize I'm trying to imagine myself back in those situations in order to find the answer, so I am responding with 35 years between the action and the consideration). Now with facebook and the forums we can read what people say and how others respond to those statements and decide which path we take by that education. Back then we just had The Community. You would maybe make a slight move and see how it was responded to. You would go on a date and then talk with your friends about it. Maybe you said something like, "She grabbed my hands over my head" and then saw how your friends reacted to it (usual response would be "That's Rape!" BDSM was NOT considered a normal alternative, although the Lesbian Sex Mafia was working on changing that). These days I found my soul as a Top and a Butch, but back then those phrases were only mentioned with a sneer. I remember one girl I was with throwing me off my side onto my back. She then got on top of me and started to 'dry hump' me. I thought, What the f*ck is she trying to prove? What is she doing? Trying to act as a guy??!!?? I so wish I could find her now and discuss her experiences, any pain or isolation she might have felt. She moved to San Fran so I believe I can assume where Her/His life took him. And yes, I dissed him (now using the pronoun that I believe he is living his life with). That's a quick thought about how society norms got spread. I'm sure tomorrow I'll want to add more thoughts to this.
The bedrooms of Lesbians were VERY politicized. But most groups do react more radically when they are emerging, trying to find their rights and the Lesbians of the 80's...or women as a whole were no exception. If we copied men we were just trying to BE men and not trying to show that we are capable as people. So we shunned anything that mimicked polarized relationships.
I remember when I first moved to L.A. one of the first women I met in a lesbian bar was a regular character in a TV show of the time. She came up to me and outright asked me, "Are you butch or femme? You ride a motorcycle so you must be butch but you seem to have a women's heart so you must be femme!" I was so stunned by the question! That would NEVER have been asked in NYC! I thought quickly and responded with, "I'm a hippie". Not the best answer, but it was out of my realm of experience.
I also remember the start of a new magazine just before I left NYC in '85. It was called On Our Backs (the name was a response to a radical political magazine called "Off Our Backs"---which might have also helped mold our sexual position). San Francisco had already started to realize that we didn't need to unsexualize ourselves to repel men, but instead we needed to sexualize ourselves to attract other women! I remember my feelings when I read my first issue. I found myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soon
Last question (for now):
So, all the butches and the femmes went into a more andro mode. Were there ways to suss each other a bit and still couple up despite the more neutral outerwear?
Fantastic thread -- love reading everyone's experiences and will share my (kind of limited) ones!
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Was there a way to suss each other out? Hmmm. I guess there were. No relationship is perfectly equal no matter how much you try. But we didn't try to suss each other out as butch or femme. That would have meant we needed to label ourselves as one or the other and that was a no-no. But of course, if you are naturally more in one direction you hopefully found your magnetic opposite
Anya, I have no doubt it was difficult for your ex, coming out of the Butch/Femme era, to learn how to walk through the new social environment. I feel for her and her contemporaries. Many of those contemporaries are on these panels with me these days. I bless them for all they did because it was easier for me to find my way as I stepped OFF the straight and narrow, then it must have been for them to learn how to tight-rope walk that path.