It's Time to Boycott Arizona

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Jess

Now.. I will say I am playing Devils Advocate with this, as it seems to be a simple solution and good as hell reason to sue for racial profiling.

i didn't think playing devil's advocate worked out well for you in the past, perhaps it's time to give it a rest when it comes to ANY thread that touches on race? it's disrespectful to 'play' at what many of us are *living*.

and also, forgive my skepticism, i'm having a super hard time thinking your posts are just about 'devil's advocacy' when you've advocated prior for waving the confederate flag as a symbol of southern heritage, and now here, a proponent of showing *papers* and suggesting immigrants arrive to this country, 'unlike americans', by van--that's really awful close to *othering* immigrants and saying they 'swam across', and other derogatory ways that racists refer to mexicans.

[Medusa]

Hey All,

I just wanted to come in here for a bit and gently remind folks that this topic is a heated one, and that there are some high emotions running through this thread. I think that's healthy and appropriate when dealing with political matters that have racist connotations.

I hope we can keep discussing the *issue* and not the person writing about the issue. Let's all make sure that we aren't being personal when addressing someone.

For instance, I think it is perfectly fine for someone to say, "Hey, that thing you said just now was really racist" and give examples of why they feel that way.

I think it is fine for the other person to respond, "Actually no, I don't feel that it's racist and here's why..."

What is not ok, is taking the conversation in a personal direction because other people are trying to participate as well and we want to talk about the *issue* and not JUST people's personal racism. If we need to talk about the racism (and clearly, we do...I think we can do that constructively). Ok?

This isn't a mod, per se, just wanted to make sure we stay on track.

In the immortal words of Ozzy Osborne, "Love you all: You're all fucking mad."

me

[Toughy]

It is my understanding that there are no border checkpoints where you have to show papers in any of the countries that belong to the European Union.............meaning you can go to Germany from France and not be asked for papers.

[Medusa]

June brings up an interesting parallel.

I did some research on my heritage just out of curiosity over the last few years. After finding several branches of different heritages for my family (that included Ouchita and Blackhawk First Nations, as well as Irish and Scottish descent, and even several African American ancestors), I decided to start researching each branch in order to get a clearer picture of who I am made of.

When I went into depth researching my Irish heritage, I came across an account of a woman who would have been some degree of cousin to me who came over here from Ireland during the famine in 1846 (or thereabouts). People were starving to death, there was no work, and according to what I read, this distant relative of mine was *alone* when she made the journey. She *also* apparently gave birth within a month of arriving here in America, which meant that she was HUGELY pregnant when she was crammed in steerage, rocking on a dirty, disease-ridden boat.

The accounts of what I found are pretty shady for a few years after she arrived but I did find that she somehow made her way to the Virginia area and worked as some type of servant.

There are a LOT of historical writings that talk about the foul treatment of "The Irish" (and many other cultures) who arrived here in America around that time. How they were shaved because of headlice, how they were exploited for cheap labor, how the women were often raped or ended up working as prostitutes to support themselves.

And honestly? "My People" haven't been here that long. Since 1846? Thats about 150 years...NOT a long time. A few generations at most.

I could be considered a white "anchor baby" if this country were full of brown folks in power who were using their privilege and racism to try to keep hold of their power like I see a lot of white people and "The System" doing.

I think that I would personally like to see the Tea Partiers, Republicans, White folks, or anyone else who screams "this is my country" the loudest do a little research on exactly where they came from. Because last I checked? This "country" was inhabited by Indigenous Peoples who were brown before a bunch of white folks started coming over here claiming they "discovered" a continent that had been inhabited by brown folks for thousands of years.

I would like to see all of us remember that this country was built on the premise of immigration and "a better life" for anyone who wanted it. Sure, the immigration system is broken in 100 different ways but a great many of us are only three, maybe even two or one, generation away from "Illegal Immigrant" ourselves.

[MsDemeanor]

Just an FYI....there seems to be a misguided boycott drive against AriZona Tea. That company was started by a couple of guys from Brooklyn, and it's always been in NYC.

AriZona Teal has zero zip zilch to do with the state of Aizona, it just has an unfortunate name.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by June

I have never driven across the borders, I have always flown or taken trains, it seems to me when we flew, we showed our passports, just as we do in the states, but I don't recall having to do that when we bought tickets to go from Koln to Amsterdam, Paris to Koln.

Perhaps if we had been riding in a van, things would have been different.

When we traveled to Mexico last year, there was a checkpoint to get into the neighborhood enclave on the beach we were staying at, and then when we crossed the Penninsula to go see some ruins. In all cases, the guards had Machine guns. It was an odd feeling to be somewhere that it was business as usual.

I will never go back to Mexico. Sure, it was beautiful, but when traveling from our rented house, we passed by so much poverty, shanty towns built out of whatever people could find. I have never witnessed anything like it here in the US. And I didn't feel like the money we spent down there was actually helping anyone that really needed it.

Is it our fault the Mexican (and other South American) governments are so corrupt and fucked up? No. But as a human being, I have no problem understanding why people want to come here to get away from it. Probably the same reasons some of my ancestors escaped from the crushing poverty of Ireland and Scotland via Steerage, which may have been the equivalent of a Van in the 1800's.

I wish we (the collective we) could put this into a human perspective. It's not like people from South America are doing this as a lark (coming to America), no one with other options would choose to ride in the back of an unventilated truck crammed in with dozens of others, or risk being shot or getting lost while crossing a desert unless they were truly desperate.

This mentality of "I got mine, you need to stay the hell away" makes me sick.

Alas, though you and I personally are not responsible for the poverty to the South of us, it is the fault of the US, both diplomatically and economically.

I don't have time to locate the sources to quote right now, but American Companies looted those countries and the US goverment has meddled way more than the CIA would have you know.

Also, sadly, there are places that poor in the USA, some of them in my state.

I agree completely that no one back in the 1800's or now takes leaving their home to come to the US lightly. I think it sucks to hear that so many people do not/did not welcome them.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by June

Apoc -- You are right and I totally glossed over this. Let me see if I can get Kat in here, we have had this conversation in our house a few times and she is way more savvy on the ins and outs of international politics than I am. I'm all about the touchy/feely human stuff.

cool!

Most of the problems the US has now are self created which for me is why I makes me even more brokenhearted when people like you said think "I got mine, you need to stay the hell away"

[Kat]

I've read so many excellent pieces about the rise in "illegal" immigration from Mexico, resulting from the many inherent flaws in the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), signed into law by my buddy, Bill Clinton, in 1994.

Unfortunately, my powers of recall are virtually non-existent. But I do know that NAFTA essentially forced Mexico to import more agriculture products from the U.S. like corn, soybeans, wheat, etc. that they grow themselves just fine, but that happen to be HEAVILY subsidized by the U.S. government, and thus are much, much cheaper.This basically wiped out the already-struggling poor Mexican farmers, which is one of the primary causes of increased immigration in the last 16 years. Before Bill Clinton...I mean, NAFTA...you didn't hear about people dying in the desert in the hope of making it to the land of hope and dreams for a better future. Nobody was talking about building walls to keep people out, either. NAFTA definitely started the ball rolling...

(Pretty good summary of NAFTA and its flaws from CounterPunch this past January: http://www.counterpunch.org/gallagher01012010.html)

But the fact that Arizona has been one of the states hardest hit by the U.S. housing collapse has led directly to this crazy new law there. Folks in AZ have lost their houses at an alarming rate, and who is always to blame at times like this, when everything is going to hell? THOSE people -- "it's THEIR fault I don't have a job, it's THEIR fault my house has lost 75% of it's value! Them and the GAYS! Let's get 'em!" A story as old as time itself...

(Article from Salon yesterday about the British Prime Minister calling a constituent a bigot, but makes a broader point about how bad economic policies lead some people to lash out at others different from them, and also mentions Arizona: http://www.salon.com/news/politics/w...ion/index.html)

[Apocalipstic]

Thank you Kat! Yes indeed.

But US meddling goes wayyyy father back.

The US and US companies have meddled in pretty much all of South and Central America since there has been a US.

United Fruit Company, UFCO, owned huge tracts of land in the area of now is (to mention a few) the Bahamas, Cuba, Costa Rica, Columbia, Ecuador, Jamaica, Guatemala, etc. They built and controlled 100% of transportation and communication in these countries and established who ran them and who got to work.

The Panama Canal, we took the land from Columbia and created the Canal Zone, which only recently was allowed it's independence.

Cuba? Between UFCO and organized crime (Mafia), Cuba is now communist because of the US. Period.

Honduras?

Nicaragua?

Chile?

Argentina?

The CIA and the US government in my lifetime has been all up in coups and trying to run everything.

The raping of these countries has gone on for 200 years, and we now want to harass everyone with brown skin who "might" be from a country we destroyed for their papers. Papers some think it should not be a big deal for them to carry and use as examples Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and North Korea.

I really am almost (heh) speechless.

OK OK, I actually could go on and on about why the problem of undocumented workers from Mexico, the Caribbean, Central & South America is the fault of the USA.

The US created the mess and the US needs to fix it.

The war on drugs in not the answer.

The war on undocumented workers not the answer.

War makes it sound like there is an enemy which should be defeated...but the enemy is and has been the US in this disaster.

Don't make me pull out my US Diplomatic History textbook now....