Veiling, Burqas and Western Feminism

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Enchantress

I spent several years studying Islam when I was younger.

Most people assume that the woman is being forced to cover herself, but in reality most do it by choice (in my experience).

My then best friend converted to Islam to marry her husband (who is Pakastani). She never covered herself unless she was in the mosque, and then only a loose head scarf (I did this as well when in the mosque).

After many years, she herself decided to wear a head covering daily. Not because she was pressured or hounded to do so. But because it became a part of what she sought and who she was.

In Islam covering oneself is not meant to be demeaning. In fact, the thought is that a woman will be treated equally.

Islam does not set out to lessen a womans power (although any religion can and is skewed by those with nefarious motives), instead a woman is revered.


There is no mention in the Koran of a woman not working, being able to own land or things or not being able to drive. On the contrary.

All of these mandates have been set forth by misogynist males who seek to control (all) not enlighten.

A woman does not forfit her right to be a feminist (nor should she be looked upon in such a way by others) simply because she chooses to cover herself.

It is her right.

With that said (and as I've stated above) there are some who do so because they fear retribution, from either a husband, father or brother. This to me is ever so sad.

Unfortunately, due to extremists, a religion that holds much beauty has been marred.

On one last note: Throughout history, women have covered themselves, even in Christianity. Just a bit of food for thought.

When I was a young woman I worked for a Muslim family. I remember talking to the sister and saying how sad it was that women were veiled. She gave me the gentle slap down by pointing out how privilged it was for me to judge another woman and her choice. She explained to me that many Muslim women feel profoundly sorry for and appalled at the way American women dress. They see us as oppressed because they view the dress as being directed for and by men for their pleasure. I had never thought about it this way and it has stuck with me.

[Rook]

What most westerners seem to Omit, and I find this rather interesting..
Muslim Men have their "Modesty" rules as well..
I believe it was Enchantress who mentioned working rights, and Land owning plus Driving in womyn's case....
I love that part, it's VERY convenient for so-called Religious men to go Blank on these little tidbits for womyn, which is another reason why I ignore their Rantings, they claim out of one corner of the Mouth to Follow the Prophets example, and through the other corner they pick and choose whats good for their own purposes.
Not all men are this way, but, unfortunately the ones who Do this, are often in a position of "Power"
Thankfully, in some Islamic countries, womyn are given certain amount of Power, mostly because of who their Family is/was {Bhutto for example}, even then, they're not Immune to fundamentalists Twisting Islam for their own convenience, but then, from what I've studied, Islam isn't the only "Organized Religion" to do this...
Whether western Feminism chooses to agree/Accept this portion in History or Not, or are a bit uneducated in the matter is a bit distressing, but easy to shrug off considering how....prejudiced some Feminists are..not All..just..Some..
Islam has mandated since the early 7th Century certain rights for Womyn..
Take for instance, Marriage..
A womyn must consent to Any marriage contract, or refuse..yes, contract...piece of paper, specifics on what the bride must do, and Not do, Likewise for the Husband..in said contract if the Bride is rather young, the Husband *if the father of the Bride is knowledgeable he'll push this part* cannot touch the Bride until she reaches their country's age of consent {this lil part is mostly when the marriage is pure politics}..
If she's quiet, that's an automatic consent to the marriage...
She also has had Inheritance rights long before the suffragists marched.
She can work out of the House, and her wages are hers and only hers to use as she deems fit, within reason.
She can also divorce {it's slightly more difficult than a man's ability*he only needs 4 witnesses and say "I divorce you" 3 times*, but she can}
In Islam, a womyn has the same right to Education as a Man {That shit they pulled in Afghanistan is a crock}.
I'll take it a Step further...
The Prophets 1st wife, Khadijah was a very Prosperous businesswomyn...
At the time, he simply tagged along, he did learn a lot from her as well..
After Khadijah's death, he remarried...a few times..the best example I can give is Aisha bint Abu Bakr, she was Perfect, Mother of all Muslims, and also the cause and root for many critics against Islam..
Her age is irrelevant, given 3 reasons...
a} Although the marriage contract was signed, she stayed with her Family for a few years before the Prophet took her to his dwellings...
b} If he were to have traumatized her in any way, she wouldn't be devoted, she wouldnt be loyal, and yeah Abu Bakr would've probably broken any ties with him.
c} During those times? the age she had was a common age to marry, that doesn't mean it's proper even then, but almost every society has their own structures, what one thinks is Heinous and Appalling, to the other it's perfectly normal..
Unfortunately some pervs like to use this for their own gain w/o actually bothering with the Political purpose and conditions for her Marriage.
She is known as a well-versed Scholar, the Legit source of many Hadith and she was a helluva Warrior, for the most part.She led the armies at one point in the Dispute of Succession, which to this Very day Separates Sunni's from Shi'a.{the division between Sunni and Shi'a is almost purely Political}

My point?
Just because the womyn's veiled doesn't always mean she's Oppressed.
I've seen Niqaabi nurses, Lawyers, Teachers...
Their Hijab can tell you their Status in the Community {Political, royalty, Tribal, etc}, but that's mostly the cultural side.
In some cases & I have found this very curious...
I've seen veiled Athletes, in the Olympics....
I do agree though about the Driving issue in Saudiya...Let's see if you can see why...
Imagine a woman, fully veiled..Burqah, Niqaab, Abaya..etc...
Behind the wheel, very fast Truck {I dont think Saudi has enforced speed limits last I checked, I could be wrong, don't hold my word as Gospel}, probably windows Down since a/c is busted {and she lives in the desert!!!}
Yes she can see thru that Mesh, or thru the Slits in the material....
What about the rest of the Flowing, Billowing cloth that flaps in the winds wake?....
Believe me, I've tested this in the U.S., I took a friend, she was modestly dressed...
At 15 MPH, she was already fighting with her Hijab {partial veil}, pinning it somehow behind her head...
At 45 MPH?...windows down?...Highway?..I was pretty much praying, hoping we didn't encounter a Mac Truck, or 5-0.
BEGGED her to park at the rest stop, and remove her outter garments if she wanted me to sit next to her again....ever.

I agree wholeheartedly with Enchantress..
All these "Oppressive" actions to stifle women from Education, Jobs, Land, and Status in some countries is just one more way to shout all over the world {Including Islamic} "I got a tiny Winky, my sister pissed me off, and my mother allowed my father to fill my head with horseshit & tales of easy women."
Btw, Female circumcision is purely Cultural under the false guise of Islam...
Besides, men, for the most part also have to wear a masculine type "Veil", or at the Least a skullcap... their shirts have to be a certain length...
And if they wear shorts, it must cover the Knees a lil..
don't believe me?
Check out most of the Saudi royal Men {they're not wearing that to brag about the status, mostly...I say mostly cuz some will happily wear elaborate Thobes, but then..they're filthy rich}, The king of Jordan, Syria, most of the Middle East... and yeah, check out Qaddafi..
Try touching their "veil" {keffiyeh}...u might as well stuff your hand down the backside of their pants and smile with a camera "say cheese !!!"
It's almost as much Cultural as Religious....

However, I will say this...
Just because they're Veiled..And appear modest..?
doesn't really mean they are.
You can be Modest/Devoted/spiritual and wear every day clothes compared to how some behave.

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty......And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms...." (Quran 24:30,31).

[Enchantress]

You're absolutely correct!

I did not bring up the males roles in Islam due to the fact that the initial discussion was in regard to feminism.

Men are definitely held to a certain standard of modesty as well.

During my years discovering and studying amongst those who practiced Islam I never ran across unhappiness within the community.

Thank you for the information you've shared!

[Rook]

My pleasure, Enchantress, welcome..
I can understand why you stayed on the Feminist subject, I thought the same earlier today..
I did, however, see a small window of opportunity to draw a comparison tonight, w/o derailing the Thread {or..trying not to}..

[Martina]

i am glad that it's not illegal to wear any of the above and that women can do as they choose in this country. The fights over this in Belgium, France, and Italy make me grateful for our constitution. i do not believe the Europeans when they argue that it is a public safety concern.

Personally, i do not want to see women veiled. i do not like it. But i do not live these women's lives.

What i have done in the past is give money to organizations that support freedom for women in regions where it seems like there is little. i have given money to an organization that builds schools for girls, and i used to contribute to a group that outfitted girls' soccer teams in North Africa.

[JustJo]

I just wanted to pop back in here with a "thank you" for Enchantress and Rook for sharing your experiences. It helps me to hear the voice of people who have direct experience...rather than just the media or the opinions of those of us who have not. You add an important element to the discussion....and I appreciate it.

[Martina]

i just saw this. It's by a French politician, trying to justify to Americans why they feel the need to outlaw veils that cover the face. i do not believe it for a moment. It is cultural. And i sympathize with that. i do. But still.

You know that London is the city most covered by video surveillance in the world. i cannot believe that that is acceptable to them, but it is. i work in a high crime area. i have been the victim of crimes. But this stuff just brings out the unreconstructed civil libertarian in me.

There's an article in this week's Nation, i think, by Katha Pollit -- about Berlin. They have had some form of public health insurance since the late 19th Century. And so on. i too envy a lot of the public institutions that some European countries have. But i would not give up the right to dress and worship as i please for any of them. Maybe that is a privileged person speaking, one who has usually had health insurance.

i am not jingoistic about the U.S., but the day will never come in this country when it is illegal to wear the veil. It's impossible to imagine. And i am very happy to come from THAT tradition. There definitely are things about the U.S. that i like, and this is one of them. That feeling IN ME that, by god, the day they pass a law like that, i will be on the streets to defend a practice i find personally abhorrent. And i know lots of people -- conservative and liberal -- who would feel the same.

[Hack]

Originally Posted by Martina

i am glad that it's not illegal to wear any of the above and that women can do as they choose in this country. The fights over this in Belgium, France, and Italy make me grateful for our constitution. i do not believe the Europeans when they argue that it is a public safety concern.

Personally, i do not want to see women veiled. i do not like it. But i do not live these women's lives.

What i have done in the past is give money to organizations that support freedom for women in regions where it seems like there is little. i have given money to an organization that builds schools for girls, and i used to contribute to a group that outfitted girls' soccer teams in North Africa.

I follow European politics as sort of a hobby since visiting there a year ago. I had many interesting discussions with native Dutch people about their immigration issues with Muslims. The entire head covering issue is a hot button in the Netherlands, as well...and it really makes the Dutch uncomfortable to discuss it since they pride themselves on their tolerance. The most popular politician in the Netherlands right now just published his "manifesto," and this is one of the top issues. I am always fascinated with how the western European countries say they are "integrating" their immigrants, but are really doing anything but. I viewed many of the policies in the Netherlands to be separatist -- on both sides.

Here in Michigan, we have a very large Middle Eastern community, mostly Iraqi Chaldeans. Many of the high schools in the Detroit area have made accommodations for girls in gym classes and on athletic teams to allow for compliance with their beliefs (not requiring them to wear shorts and to be able to keep their head coverings on).

Jake

[Rook]

Originally Posted by Hack

Here in Michigan, we have a very large Middle Eastern community, mostly Iraqi Chaldeans. Many of the high schools in the Detroit area have made accommodations for girls in gym classes and on athletic teams to allow for compliance with their beliefs (not requiring them to wear shorts and to be able to keep their head coverings on).

Jake

Last I was told, Michigan actually has the largest muslim community in North America, rivaling New York...
Dearborn, in particular..With a very big Mosque to follow suit.
My curiosity will eventually get the better part of me...