Butch as an umbrella of presentations

[Angeltoes]

Originally Posted by Martina

You should meet some of the femmes I've dated and/or been in service to. Oh my.

I'm just speaking for myself.
And like I said, it can mean something totally different for others.

[SugarFemme]

Why is it when people don't agree with someones (ridiculous, not based on fact) theories, the "modern concepts" are thrown around?? Because something is allegedly "modern", those of us who don't agree or call bullshit on it are accused of being "upset" by it?? Just because you say it's a modern concept, does NOT make it fact. Just because you accept them as YOUR truths, do not make them THE truth. You say that this is not, "the place to argue about my beliefs", so we are just supposed to accept what you say whether we agree or not?

Originally Posted by mariamma

Don't let me define you. And don't define me as white. I'm mixed (English and African American). I know many are upset by my modern concepts. I'm sorry about that. I do accept these notions since I see them everywhere. You can believe or not believe as you see fit.

This is not the place to argue about my beliefs. This is the place to discuss whether or not butch is an umbrella term. If you want to fight with me about my beliefs, please do so in a different thread. Maybe y'all should start a "Why I can't stand someone pontificating" thread? Or "Why I hate pompous people" thread. That might get me to shut up. But this thread is about butch as an umbrella presentation. I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.

[Corkey]

1. If hormones make the butch, or femme, then anyone who has had a hysterectomy would not fall into the "modern concept". Science can no more tell from someones hormone levels what their gender identity is than knowing if there is life on other planets. Gender is between the ears not the legs.
2. Dominance is no more a Butch fact then a Femme fact. It is as individual as the many identities on any spectrum.
3. If someone starts a thread based on nothing more than a sentence and does not clarify, they will get a multitude of answers from folks all over the spectrum, and we all have our opinions. But scientific facts are facts and google is not now or has it ever been a place for clear scientific fact.

I don't presume to know what the OP was thinking, it isn't clear, but I'll wait for clarification.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by mariamma

Don't let me define you. And don't define me as white. I'm mixed (English and African American). I know many are upset by my modern concepts. I'm sorry about that. I do accept these notions since I see them everywhere. You can believe or not believe as you see fit.

This is not the place to argue about my beliefs. This is the place to discuss whether or not butch is an umbrella term. If you want to fight with me about my beliefs, please do so in a different thread. Maybe y'all should start a "Why I can't stand someone pontificating" thread? Or "Why I hate pompous people" thread. That might get me to shut up. But this thread is about butch as an umbrella presentation. I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.

you define me..................big ole snort..........

you certainly do like the western paradigm regardless of your gene pool......

nothing you spout off about is modern nor is it fact, so stop pretending you are some kind of intellectual and scientifically knowledgeable.... as you said....these are your notions and beliefs....and despite what the Republicans would have you think notions and beliefs are not facts.

[yotlyolqualli]

Wow.

Mariamma...

You and I have our own set of beliefs that can be pretty damned unpopular. I don't believe as you do and thats OK. But this.... this is pretty fucking sad. I can't believe that your INTELLECT is being attacked because you shared your beliefs, your opinions.

For that, I'm sorry. I had thought better of us. I'll now have to rethink that.

Take care.

[Corkey]

My rep to Toughy is not an acknowledgment of her words to whom she posted, but I really have a herd time with folks trying to tout BS as science. As for me, I acknowledge Toughy's humor in speaking for herself. Presumptions are sometimes putting cart before horse.

[Rope]

As a native American, I just HAD to google twin-spirit. A semi-copting of the term Two-Spirit, the term LGBT native Americans use to describe themselves. For many of us, Two-Spirit is a calling/vocation and not just a way to describe queer or our sexuality but rather our spirituality because THAT is the TWINS we're referencing. Before I googled it and followed any link though--here's what I thought I'd find: white people offering a retreat in which you can find your "twin spirit" self and of course, charging money for it---I wasn't disappointed, that's just what I found. Probably the same people that market dream catchers to hang from your car rearview mirror.

So as not to totally derail this thread---the umbrella of butch is long and wide. You can be a vegetarian, long haired, dull colored-dress wearing, Republican and still call yourself butch. Key word, call YOURSELF butch--it is not something any of us can tell you that you are or not. You will meet femmes that say to you, 'you're not butch enough' or OTHERS that say, 'this is how butches should act/dress/be/etc.' and somehow you will come out of it the butch you were meant to be provided you can throw off the shit of what others say and be you in all your butch glory. Additionally, you won't CARE what others say, because as Popeye says, 'I am what I am and that's what I am'.

Rope--

[OS Butch]

This Butch loves to wear pink polo shirts Yep, I do What I did discover though, my slacks are mostly black or navy blue...So the next pair I bought were khaki ...That is tan, right?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

This Butch loves to wear pink polo shirts Yep, I do What I did discover though, my slacks are mostly black or navy blue...So the next pair I bought were khaki ...That is tan, right?

The *only* downside to being married to a serious foodie is that I have two salmon polo shirts that no longer fit me about the belly. I love those things and, quite honestly, didn't think I'd ever like pink.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Rope

As a native American, I just HAD to google twin-spirit. A semi-copting of the term Two-Spirit, the term LGBT native Americans use to describe themselves. For many of us, Two-Spirit is a calling/vocation and not just a way to describe queer or our sexuality but rather our spirituality because THAT is the TWINS we're referencing. Before I googled it and followed any link though--here's what I thought I'd find: white people offering a retreat in which you can find your "twin spirit" self and of course, charging money for it---I wasn't disappointed, that's just what I found. Probably the same people that market dream catchers to hang from your car rearview mirror.

This. So much this. A billion years ago during the explosion of New Age appropriating of Native American culture I had a roommate who kept trying to get me to adopt some aspects of Native American spirituality because she said I 'could be' part Native. That may be the case but since I don't know anything about where my genes come from (adoptee) I can't say I am so it's not my culture. I also feel too Western to really feel comfortable appropriating African culture. My skin is brown but I'm not African. But that's another topic for another thread.

So as not to totally derail this thread---the umbrella of butch is long and wide. You can be a vegetarian, long haired, dull colored-dress wearing, Republican and still call yourself butch. Key word, call YOURSELF butch--it is not something any of us can tell you that you are or not. You will meet femmes that say to you, 'you're not butch enough' or OTHERS that say, 'this is how butches should act/dress/be/etc.' and somehow you will come out of it the butch you were meant to be provided you can throw off the shit of what others say and be you in all your butch glory. Additionally, you won't CARE what others say, because as Popeye says, 'I am what I am and that's what I am'.

Rope--

Back when I turned thirty, I asked my friend and boss at the time what the difference was between forty and thirty. She looked at me and said, "somewhere right around forty you develop an utter failure to give a good goddamn what people think of you". At forty-five, I'm much more comfortable in my butchitude than even ten years ago. I'm me, nerdy butch. Everyone wears butch their own way, we all have different ways to swagger, and no one can take that away from us. We can't even really give it away.

Cheers
Aj

[blush]

Originally Posted by yotlyolqualli

Wow.

Mariamma...

You and I have our own set of beliefs that can be pretty damned unpopular. I don't believe as you do and thats OK. But this.... this is pretty fucking sad. I can't believe that your INTELLECT is being attacked because you shared your beliefs, your opinions.

For that, I'm sorry. I had thought better of us. I'll now have to rethink that.

Take care.

We see it differently. But for me, if someone makes an outrageous claim (such as: I saw an alien), it requires equally outrageous proof (such as: I have the alien over there). Trotting out google or whatnot as evidence of my alien visitation is not convincing enough evidence for the claim I made.

As a community, it is our obligation to question, defend, and define ourselves. If we don't, others will. Now, I don't give a rat's ass if someone takes a shine to that worn out theory about the hormones. It's their prerogative. But it heartens me to see so many responses that question the outrageous-ness of the claim.

[Bèsame*]

In my mind..

This umbrella is huge, like the one you find at the beach. You would be surprised at how many butches can squeeze under it. Lucky for us, there are no two alike under it

[AlexHunter]

Hey there, Fanbutch! How 'bout them... Braves? O.o

It seems people have already stated my sentiments: the definition of butch is subjective and up to personal interpretation - this would mean that for me, it's an umbrella of presentations.

I've recently been incorporating more bright colors into my wardrobe... and I'm proud of it! Black, white, gray, and the occasional green or red were the only colors I wore for years. It's been exciting to wear colors like burgandy and indigo and yellow and, yes, even pink. When I was younger, I was absorbed with the idea of being society's idea of an acceptable "butch," but - to quote Ivan E Coyote (in "A Butch Roadmap") - "(We) are a rare species, not a stereotype."

I love clothes shopping. In fact, I love it so much that I've actually used it in place of something therapeutic during times of tragedy. I don't think this makes me less butch. It's not my primary method of consolation, but even if it was, it wouldn't revoke my butch card. I (like most of us) was raised being forced to wear "girl clothes" ; as soon as I could buy "guy clothes," I... think I went buck wild and never went back.

I'm going to take things a step further and say I like wearing my clothes on the tighter side. I'm rather slim and slightly tall; baggy clothes look ridiculous on me. I am assumed male most of the time and have been told people either think I'm a hipster, a rock band singer, or a twink when I'm in my casual wear. I like to incorporate the formal with the casual as much as possible.

So yeah, I preen. I watch what I eat and cut my own hair, too. I also own a remodeling business, drive a big truck, am on the hunt for a motorcycle, know a little bit about vehicular restoration and repairs, drink beer and shots almost exclusively, am sexually dominant, usually dislike "rom coms" (but I definitely dig the term you invented), always felt more like one of the guys than one of the girls, shave my face, bind, sometimes pack, and only date femmes.

The last paragraph represents things that might make other people call me butch - NOT the exact traits or sentiments of butches who are not me. I define myself as butch because I feel it is a term that suits me, both in its meaning of masculine and its place in queer history. I also define myself as butch, in part, because of the dynamic I like sharing with femmes.

What I'm trying to say through sharing my personal experience is: be your own definition of butch. If "butch" is a term you want to claim for yourself, do it. Own it. Rock it proudly and look damn good doing it... bright colors and all.

[jac]

I don't need someone, society or the community to define me as butch. I am as butch as I am because I say that I am. Is one butch more defined than another? Not hardly. If I say I am an artist who chooses to draw/sketch but not paint... am I any less an artist? Nope.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Everyone wears butch their own way, we all have different ways to swagger, and no one can take that away from us. We can't even really give it away.

Cheers
Aj

This. This is all that needs be said on the matter.

Many folks will repeat it in their own words no doubt.


Ta ever so much for posting this Aj.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by Uniqueswtfemm

In my mind..

This umbrella is huge, like the one you find at the beach. You would be surprised at how many butches can squeeze under it. Lucky for us, there are no two alike under it

Welcome!

I think this post should be quoted over and over again.
Just as femmes , are all very different , so are we.