"Stud" versus "Butch"

[julieisafemme]

What I have learned as a white person is that sometimes it is painful and hurtful for people of color to hear white people process their questions and feelings. That is the privilege we have. So it is helpful for us to read or talk to other white people who might know more than we do. Asking questions is fine but sometimes we have to understand that people might not want to answer. That is their right.

I totally understand what you are saying about having trouble learning that way. I also have a very difficult time understanding things in writing. I have to read things over and over to understand. I do understand though that it is not other's responsibility to help me deal with my different way of learning.

Originally Posted by Girl_On_Fire

And I never said you implied I was lazy. However, from your (and others) suggestion that people need to "educate themselves", it makes it seem as though you are implying laziness or not caring on the part of anyone who would reach out to others for answers versus learning on their own. I cannot do that very successfully and I'm sure I'm not alone. Reaching out to patient others who are willing to see and understand my genuine confusion and ignorance are really the only people whom I can safely and successfully learn from.

I didn't mean to start anything serious by asking this question but I'm glad it turned into a serious discussion. I've lead an incredibly sheltered life (and not good sheltered, more like ignored/dismissed/abused sheltered so please don't read privileged into that because I've worked hard for every scrap of knowledge I've ever managed to pull from people because I have a developmental/learning disorder.)

My point is, everybody comes from a different place and has a different story. It's not what others do or say or believe, to me, it's how you respond to them. If anybody thinks someone is being a jerk or rude or lazy or trying to start something because they ask a question, then that is their perception. This is a big pet peeve of mine because I've been chronically dismissed since childhood for asking what I believed (and still believe) to be innocent questions while trying to learn about the world around me. While that's my own personal issue and has nothing to do with you or this discussion, it's important to keep in mind that everybody's brain works differently and their experiences shape how they view the world. They may truly not at all understand your response to their question or confusion and a more sensitive person may run away and burrow deeper into their own solitude for fear of other's reactions to them.

Thankfully, a bit of age and wisdom has taught me not to run and hide, but to explain and discuss as rationally as my current emotions allow in any given situation.

[Reader]

I tried to read this whole thread, but I just cannot and do not want to wade through it any further than I did.

This thread is a perfect example of the cannibalization that goes on in our community.

It's like the operation was a success, but the patient died.

What the hell happened to "Sisterhood is Powerful"?

Was the revolution a success, yet the sisterhood died?

Bleh.

[aishah]

the "sisterhood" hasn't often been a place of power and safety and community for indigenous women and women of color. sometimes it's come at our expense. i for one thought the fact that snow got called a bully again for adding to the conversation by sharing what it's like for her to deal with racism on a daily basis again was pretty cannibalizing.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by aishah

... expecting people - especially marginalized folks - to be a resource is dehumanizing. ...

I don't *expect* anyone to be a resource for me, but it sure is nice when they *agree* to be one.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

I don't *expect* anyone to be a resource for me, but it sure is nice when they *agree* to be one.

perhaps the word "expect" was the wrong word to use.

to me, the resource dynamic is extremely problematic.

[Glenn]

Originally Posted by aishah

perhaps the word "expect" was the wrong word to use.

to me, the resource dynamic is extremely problematic.

Ah! No It was the perfect word because that is where the beginning of exploitation always occurs. The stud has always been a freak of nature, beyond time, the traditions of men, and culture.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Glenn

The stud has always been a freak of nature, beyond time, the traditions of men, and culture.

Hi Glenn. I can sort of imagine what you might mean by "freak of nature." On the other hand, I am totally at a loss as to what "beyond time" is about. And as for "the traditions of men, and culture"—again, not sure I know what traditions, what men, and what culture you're referring to.

I'm interested in what you're saying. If you feel like it, could you possibly elaborate?

Thanks.

[Glenn]

There have been many "studs" throughout history that are both female and male who have "planted their seeds" in others spiritually, intellectually, politically, artistically, physically, etc. For example, Jesus was a "stud" imo, who defied the pharisees, and has sired many spiritual giants. But, many do not have the capablities of the orginal "stud", who try to emulate them like many do.,which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It was later that the oringinal teaching was exploited. But then their idealogies or "seeds" continue, until another one is "born" , to give birth to, hopefully, a better world of people.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Glenn

There have been many "studs" throughout history that are both female and male who have "planted their seeds" in others spiritually, intellectually, politically, artistically, physically, etc. For example, Jesus was a "stud" imo, who defied the pharisees, and has sired many spiritual giants. But, many do not have the capablities of the orginal "stud", who try to emulate them like many do.,which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It was later that the oringinal teaching was exploited. But then their idealogies or "seeds" continue, until another one is "born" , to give birth to, hopefully, a better world of people.

Hi, Glenn. Thanks for your patience. I sort of understand the first part of what you wrote, and that's a new one for me, your take on Jesus.

The part I bolded though, completely lost me. Please don't feel compelled to explain any further but if you do, I would read with interest.

[pinkgeek]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I also have a very difficult time understanding things in writing. I have to read things over and over to understand. I do understand though that it is not other's responsibility to help me deal with my different way of learning.

(Juliesafemme - not picking on you, just using this as a jumping off point.)

I do agree some people don't learn best by reading - my more handsome half certainly doesn't - what I will say is that a lot of information on a wide variety of subjects is available for free on video, audio and alternative formats for learning. Being able to discern a video etc. is of merit is fairly easy.

In my experience "I don't learn by reading" (while it may be true) is an excuse that skirts around the fact that aishah, Snow and others have the confidence to say (more than once) out loud that they aren't the bottomless well of cultural knowledge society expects them to be.

I'm not playing holier than thou; cultural competency is a difficult topic. For me part of unpacking white privilege is to be able to listen, see, read, hear what POC have to say without the "but" that is so common to contemporary culture.

[julieisafemme]

Exactly. Which is why I posted that. No one is responsible for how I learn. When I first was told, quite clearly, that my questions were hurtful I took the suggestion to watch Tim Wise. Then I got his books and then I went to see him speak in person. That helped me enormously. That was a space where my questions and fumblings were ok.

Originally Posted by pinkgeek

(Juliesafemme - not picking on you, just using this as a jumping off point.)

I do agree some people don't learn best by reading - my more handsome half certainly doesn't - what I will say is that a lot of information on a wide variety of subjects is available for free on video, audio and alternative formats for learning. Being able to discern a video etc. is of merit is fairly easy.

In my experience "I don't learn by reading" (while it may be true) is an excuse that skirts around the fact that aishah, Snow and others have the confidence to say (more than once) out loud that they aren't the bottomless well of cultural knowledge society expects them to be.

I'm not playing holier than thou; cultural competency is a difficult topic. For me part of unpacking white privilege is to be able to listen, see, read, hear what POC have to say without the "but" that is so common to contemporary culture.

[apretty]

Are you saying that you're NOT WHITE?

Originally Posted by Reader

With all due respect, wb, do you really believe that what I posted has anything at all to do with white privilege?

And why do you assume I am WHITE?

[Martina]

OK another white person talking about her impressions of stud. Seems kinda weird and off-putting to be doing this. But here goes.

Where I used to live, the studs closer in age to me would often have manicured nails or earrings or do their hair in ways that were more feminine. But I'd also seem them wearing men's suits and hats. They tended to dress more like that when they were going out with their girlfriends. In my generation, most of the studs were very comfortable presenting themselves as masculine and feminine at the same time, sometimes more one than the other depending on the day.

Where I lived and worked for a few years -- in CA -- it seemed to me that the younger women more consistently presented as masculine. However, most of them used names or nicknames that ID'd them as female and used female pronouns.

I am not sure that this has ANYTHING to do with the stud ID. I think it has more to do with the fact that many African Americans do butch or stud differently.

This is also from back in the day. My experience and from friends who have talked to me about it is that it was disrespectful for a stud not to be treated as the dominant partner in public, but that in private, whatever works in your bed or relationship is fine. I am talking outside of a leather context.

Stud does feel different to me, but not less or more masculine. Just different. It feels -- and this is me, me, me -- like people have had less of a struggle with it as an ID. I wonder if that is because it was more accepted and known among straight and gay African American people than butch is among gay and straight white people. I don't know.

African Americans traditionally have polled as against gay marriage etc. But my impression is that there is a certain lack of surprise bordering on tolerance re lesbian relationships. Gay male relationships get more criticism, as always.

[Martina]

One of my former students was a self-ID'd stud. Her girlfriend was a femme. She had had previous girlfriends -- all straight. She was the first woman each had been with. Anyway, my student's mind was a little blown by the femme girlfriend. Femmes were different from straight girls, she told me (not knowing that she was talking to a femme. lol). Anyway, as she described it, the femme girlfriend was almost too confident. She knew what she wanted in and out of bed, and was, in general, a proud lesbian. They stayed together, however. I think the student just had to adjust to the ways of the new girlfriend.

Anyway, to this student -- before she met her femme girlfriend -- lesbians were studs. From her point of view, the women they fucked were NOT by definition lesbian. They were most often not. They were straight or possibly bisexual. They were girls who couldn't resist the charms of a stud lover.

I had another student, well before the other's time, who ID'd as bisexual She is feminine and at that time was a pimp. She turned her girlfriends out. She took care of them when they got arrested or pregnant, but she was a pimp. Her theory was that feminine women slept with other women because women know how to sexually please other women. In her mind, if you presented as feminine, you were probably not a lesbian. Studs were lesbians. Feminine women might be bisexual, as she was, but were more likely straight and just liked sex with women because men were inept by comparison.

I have no idea how common these attitudes are among young African American women in Richmond or anywhere else. But talk about femme invisibility.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Originally Posted by pinkgeek

(Juliesafemme - not picking on you, just using this as a jumping off point.)

I do agree some people don't learn best by reading - my more handsome half certainly doesn't - what I will say is that a lot of information on a wide variety of subjects is available for free on video, audio and alternative formats for learning. Being able to discern a video etc. is of merit is fairly easy.

In my experience "I don't learn by reading" (while it may be true) is an excuse that skirts around the fact that aishah, Snow and others have the confidence to say (more than once) out loud that they aren't the bottomless well of cultural knowledge society expects them to be.

I'm not playing holier than thou; cultural competency is a difficult topic. For me part of unpacking white privilege is to be able to listen, see, read, hear what POC have to say without the "but" that is so common to contemporary culture.

The only issue I have with this is it takes away from the sense of community. Maybe I'm not understanding something socially about how people come together on forums. (Wouldn't be the first time.) However, if I saw somebody start a thread asking a question, and I didn't want to be a resource, I'd just avoid the thread. Therefore I wouldn't have to be a resource and would have no reason to be upset about having been asked to be one. To me, starting a thread in a forum filled with hundreds or thousands of different people does not ask a direct question of one person. It is simply that: A question. Anyone can choose to (or not to) respond.

[Runner]

Just wanted to add I think this thread had some purpose until that ridiculous video was added - seriously cannot understand what relevance the ramblings of a random student had to the original thread and the posters intent on adding it?

[Daywalker]

Originally Posted by Runner

Just wanted to add I think this thread had some purpose until that ridiculous video was added - seriously cannot understand what relevance the ramblings of a random student had to the original thread and the posters intent on adding it?

As icky as it was to see it, there is that door of knowledge to pull from
it...in that it is a sobering image of the vast difference in perspectives
on Studs and the like, and this one happened upon us as one
that a White person took the time to record and share.

To Me, even the many degrees of ignorance should be a part of
ones bank of knowledge. When I see shit like that, it reminds
me there is still much to be taught...and I have personally
fancied the thought how wondrous it would be if there
were more panel discussions available to
folks, both inter-generational
and interracial.


Now I've rambled.
Big surprise.

[Runner]

The person in the video recognised the cultural background and was therefore armed with the knowledge but dismissed it, why the fuck would/should anyone try to educate people like this is beyond me.

Difference being though that the OP started the thread with no knowledge of the usage of stud and appeared (to me) to geniunely question the definition and IMO this merits a discussion.

In relation to the original post, I have come across it before within the studs/aggressives documentary posted earlier

[Stud_puppy1991]

Personally, I know I am a butch, however, i get called a stud as well. Some use on me because I am young, but I usually just call myself a young butch. However, it makes no difference to me, because I will embrace it either way. And well, I'm just me