Exclusion: A Women's Issue?

[Jess]

Originally Posted by apretty

exclusion/inclusion isn't a woman's issue.

'inclusion' is a human issue and 'exclusion' is all about perception--if someone feels 'entitled' to enter a space meant for like-minded/bodied/spirited-"others" it really speaks to that person's sense of *entitlement* and/or lack of respect/awareness.

in femme-zone space, where the participants are attempting to *temporarily* remove the ever-present *butch* from the butch-and-femme, in an attempt to see/discuss/nuture/admire/tend to all that is FEMME, i do *not* feel unsafe by masculine participation rather, i am suspect of that masculine person's ability to participate in any effective manner and will wonder of that masculine-person's motivation--unless he/she does offer some amazing insight (and it really better be fucking amazing) because yes, masculine-energy in a femme-intended space alters the discussion, and frequently demonstrates that which we're intending to discuss. (...and this is something to consider because i imagine that no one wants to be "the bad example" )

I agree in that it is "human issue", wholeheartedly. I also sense that it is primarily women ( past, present or future) who are or seem to be more willing to share their space. Or maybe more accurately, less willing to demand it.

As a general reader perusing a website that has areas designated for "femmes" or "butches" or "trans" , what have you, I have always assumed the space was still open to "others" and welcomed input from said "others". For me, it is much clearer when it is stated, with no room for misinterpretation. Just keeps things cleaner for me anyway.

Thank you apretty.

[blush]

Originally Posted by apretty

exclusion/inclusion isn't a woman's issue.

'inclusion' is a human issue and 'exclusion' is all about perception--if someone feels 'entitled' to enter a space meant for like-minded/bodied/spirited-"others" it really speaks to that person's sense of *entitlement* and/or lack of respect/awareness.

in femme-zone space, where the participants are attempting to *temporarily* remove the ever-present *butch* from the butch-and-femme, in an attempt to see/discuss/nuture/admire/tend to all that is FEMME, i do *not* feel unsafe by masculine participation rather, i am suspect of that masculine person's ability to participate in any effective manner and will wonder of that masculine-person's motivation--unless he/she does offer some amazing insight (and it really better be fucking amazing) because yes, masculine-energy in a femme-intended space alters the discussion, and frequently demonstrates that which we're intending to discuss. (...and this is something to consider because i imagine that no one wants to be "the bad example" )

I think I love you.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by blush

I'm not sure who you're directing this question to? I can give you a woman's perspective, but many members of our transgendered community are not and never have been women. Perhaps their opinions/"take on things" may differ? Does that make sense?

As I read it, your question seems to give the "lesser of two evils." On the one hand, if I say I have to "include," then I have an absolute need for approval. If I say I fear "excluding" then I am weak. Could you clarify that?

It was a general question. These are things I am attempting to understand for myself as well.

I cannot and would never attempt to speak to the take on things from someone who id's s trans or femme or anyone else that I am not. The experience varies from person to person, what the point I m trying to make is that "who better to seek solace or understanding from than another familiar"?

I am not trying to say that women are weak or anything like that. I am saying it is a trend I have seen in many arenas to not "take space" for themselves.

I hope this helps, blush. If not.. I will keep trying as sometimes my words really don't come out as I hear them in my head.

[BullDog]

Great thread Jess. I see a lot of positive things happening on this website that fit in with what Jess is talking about. Various threads are in place right now for specific gender identities where femmes, female identified butches, the Bravehearts and others are staking their claims to have conversations where people can talk with others about their identities without a lot of outside intrusion. Sometimes there can be a fine line as to who "belongs" in a conversation and sometimes it is clearer. Sometimes people with good intentions can unintentionally break the flow of the conversation. I think those who the thread is intended for do have a right to speak up respectfully to get the conversation back on track. I think these types of conversations do strengthen us and perhaps threads like this and SuperFemme's Negotiating Silence or, say, a thread for all butches and threads like that can be used to have conversations across gender identities where we can raise our questions or concerns we have as part of the larger community and how we are perceived.

I understand when say, female identified butches are having a conversation that perhaps other butches may feel left out or feel that things are being said that mischaracterize them. I haven't agreed with everything that has been said about butches or how butches interact in the femme thread, but I certainly respect the space and recognize how very important the conversation is. I also know that my truth may be different and I believe the femmes are speaking theirs. It is my job to listen, and I learn a lot from listening and not interjecting into the conversation.

I think the specific spaces carved out have been for people of various gender identities to speak from and about their own experiences and not to bash others. I think those of us participating in the groups should speak our truths, remain respectful of others, and be willing to also have discussions across gender identities to make us all stronger.

I truly want to thank Jack, Medusa and the Moderators for all the support they have given to these endeavors. I also thank everyone in the community contributing to these very important conversations. I do believe they will make us all stronger.

[Apocalipstic]

Great thread Jess!

Are you saying that it would be easier for everyone if the title of the thread stated it was for Femmes Only or POC Only, or Transguys Only, Or Women Identified Butches, or Incest Survivors or whathaveyou... only?

I think it is a great idea, but in practice it looks like to me (from past experience) that the very act of writing that a thread is for __________ only seems to bring in people to complain about how they feel excluded. I think I have done it, without thinking it through entirely.

I wonder if there is a way to separate these private threads other than being in the general lists of threads?

People are going to come on the website, not read an entire thread, and post. It is going to happen with no ill will meant and people are going to get their feelings hurt unless there is another way to get to the thread or show the thread....and if there is a different way to access the thread, will the new people who actually need the thread be able to reach it?

So logistics is my question.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Great thread Jess!

Are you saying that it would be easier for everyone if the title of the thread stated it was for Femmes Only or POC Only, or Transguys Only, Or Women Identified Butches, or Incest Survivors or whathaveyou... only?

I think it is a great idea, but in practice it looks like to me (from past experience) that the very act of writing that a thread is for __________ only seems to bring in people to complain about how they feel excluded. I think I have done it, without thinking it through entirely.

I wonder if there is a way to separate these private threads other than being in the general lists of threads?

People are going to come on the website, not read an entire thread, and post. It is going to happen with no ill will meant and people are going to get their feelings hurt unless there is another way to get to the thread or show the thread....and if there is a different way to access the thread, will the new people who actually need the thread be able to reach it?

So logistics is my question.

Good questions! I'm not really sure unless we perhaps designate those "zones" an "only" space for posting. Ex: Femme Zone is for femme posters only, while others are invited to read, just not comment/ derail. I think perhaps a statement to that effect in our "netiquette" can both allow for such safe spaces and be disarming to anyone who might otherwise feel "excluded".

The logistics of making any kind of change is always a tricky sea to navigate. This is exactly why to me, this type of discussion is so helpful.

Thank you for your input

[MizzSabra]

What about those of us who don't ID one way or the other?
Or those of us who straddle the line between femme and butch?
Or those of us who have both a female and male ID?

Would I be excluded from posting in a thread about male identity? Would I be excluded from posting in a thread about femme invisibility?

Just curious.

[BullDog]

Apocalipstic, just my thoughts, but if a thread is in the Femme Zone I as a Butch should be mindful that all the threads there are part of the Femme Zone and I should be respectful of that. It doesn't necessarily mean I absolutely can't ever post in any of those threads, but I should be mindful and respectful that it is Femme space. It's also my responsibility to read the OP and the thread in it's entirety before posting. If I don't that's on me. It's also my responsibility to realize not every conversation is about me or will include me and that's ok.

I also am not sure people are talking about these threads being Only in that no one else can't post ever, just that if a thread is for a specific identity then that is the focus of the thread. But that is just my understanding so far. I think it would be helpful for the opening post to set out the intent of the thread, I am not sure they need to be Only threads or in a special place in the forum.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

What about those of us who don't ID one way or the other?
Or those of us who straddle the line between femme and butch?
Or those of us who have both a female and male ID?

Would I be excluded from posting in a thread about male identity? Would I be excluded from posting in a thread about femme invisibility?

Just curious.

Many people fall into that category, so you think there need to be zero "only" threads? I am fine with that too, just...it can be heartbreaking if there is a thread about incest for example and people come in and say, "well your parents did the best they could".

I am fine with all the threads being open to anyone, but sometimes it would be nice to be able to talk to likeminded people with no one feeling left out. Human nature being what it is, ain't gonna happen

Great point!

Originally Posted by BullDog

Apocalipstic, just my thoughts, but if a thread is in the Femme Zone I as a Butch should be mindful that all the threads there are part of the Femme Zone and I should be respectful of that. It doesn't necessarily mean I absolutely can't ever post in any of those threads, but I should be mindful and respectful that it is Femme space. It's also my responsibility to read the OP and the thread in it's entirety before posting. If I don't that's on me. It's also my responsibility to realize not every conversation is about me or will include me and that's ok.

I also am not sure people are talking about these threads being Only in that no one else can't post ever, just that if a thread is for a specific identity then that is the focus of the thread. But that is just my understanding so far. I think it would be helpful for the opening post to set out the intent of the thread, I am not sure they need to be Only threads or in a special place in the forum.

Yes, if people would read the OP and the thread before they posted, it would be great. But, is it going to happen? Doubt it.

I was merely trying to nail down for myself what Jess was saying and pondering if we are capable of not butting in on other people's threads.

The threads like the Femme one, or different Butch or Trans ones end up being an argument about who is allowed to post and what they are allowed to post.

Frustrating.

Again, not saying we need "only" threads, just saying if we did, I don't understand logistically how that would work.

Make sense????

[Jess]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

What about those of us who don't ID one way or the other?
Or those of us who straddle the line between femme and butch?
Or those of us who have both a female and male ID?

Would I be excluded from posting in a thread about male identity? Would I be excluded from posting in a thread about femme invisibility?

Just curious.

Again. more great questions. I honestly have no idea how to make this happen. I honestly have no idea how to take " my safe space" without making "someone" feel left out.

The very pointed questions you ask bring up a different area to consider. I have not seen a "tweener" or "andro" or "other space" within any of the butch and femme oriented sites I have visited. I'm not sure why that is unless it was the creators ( web site creator.. not God or whatever..lol ) to specifically create a space for butches and femmes to feel safe. I don't know and don't pretend to.

All I do know, is there has to be a way to navigate this within such a large vastly individual and creative caring community.

Thank you!

[Apocalipstic]

Maybe there is no such thing as a safe place????

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by Jess

Again. more great questions. I honestly have no idea how to make this happen. I honestly have no idea how to take " my safe space" without making "someone" feel left out.

The very pointed questions you ask bring up a different area to consider. I have not seen a "tweener" or "andro" or "other space" within any of the butch and femme oriented sites I have visited. I'm not sure why that is unless it was the creators ( web site creator.. not God or whatever..lol ) to specifically create a space for butches and femmes to feel safe. I don't know and don't pretend to.

All I do know, is there has to be a way to navigate this within such a large vastly individual and creative caring community.

Thank you!

I am not a tweener or andro, I am GenderTrash (thx to PapaChris)...I embrace both sides of butch-femme and male/female ID. So this is why I feel comfortable addressing/participating in most conversations, whether they be butch or femme or whatever.

And to address Apocalipstic's post: I don't know HOW I feel about "only" threads.


ETA: Finnochio (see my identity) means Fag in Italian. And sometimes that's exactly how I feel. I'm just a big ole drag queen fag in a woman's body.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

I am not a tweener or andro, I am GenderTrash (thx to PapaChris)...I embrace both sides of butch-femme and male/female ID. So this is why I feel comfortable addressing/participating in most conversations, whether they be butch or femme or whatever.

And to address Apocalipstic's post: I don't know HOW I feel about "only" threads.

Thank you again Mizz Sabra. I think where ever someone truly feels comfortable is exactly where they belong.

I think it must be a part of my personal journey to answer those questions for myself and not be told "who" or "what" I am.

Please note, I was not using the terms "andro" or "tweener" in any form of derogatory manner. I observe and respect that many folks are very fluid in orientation as well as id. It is not unlike my own spiritual journey, in that I see the power of grace in the most surprising places.

ETA : Me too regarding the "big ole fag in womans body"... LOL.. cept the drag queen part.. I can't walk in heels.. smiles

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Jess

Is it a woman's need to absolutely "include" or a weakness to fear "excluding"?

This is what I am trying to ascertain.

I'll answer this question for me, because of the way that it relates to the Dear Femme thread in that I have insisted repeatedly that I prefer not to close the discussion to femmes-only.

I have absolutely zero "need to absolutely 'include" or, more hideously, a woman's (dear me) "weakness to fear excluding." What I do have, is a sincere desire for masculine people to participate secondarily to the discussion should they feel so inclined, and to have meaningful dialogue whenever they do, around how and whether their words are supportive, or conversely, not supportive, in the event that they - consciously or not - hold up an old paradigm of masculine-over thinking or action. We are having this same discussion among ourselves - how we support this paradigm. It's why the thread was created.

See, only-spaces do not personally serve me. They very well may serve other people and I honor that. I don't wish to trample on them or their spaces. But good, honest, gritty dialogue is more important to me. I believe there is important work to be done in all of our spaces and that this work necessitates hard conversations between and among all of us.

When I see one group holding up bars for its only-space, I see how that group is failing to acknowledge that there are really no bars holding up the subtext of our identities. It's going to offend some folks that I just said that, "subtext of our identities," but a lot of what creates our identities are the linguistic structures we create. And language, while mind-blowingly huge in the whole of who we are as human, just ain't all there is, y'all.

A woman is shut out of women's only space because her kind of woman does not equal your kind of woman. A self-identified male is shut out of a query on classism put to female-identified butches only. Why? Because of an underlying need for togetherness? Because someone who linguistically created an identity around "male" does not experience classism in the same way that other butches do? For reasons that are internal? And I should close a discussion of the femme experience, why? Because no one else can have anything relevant to say to us about it?

I'm not going to call a girl's only club house because what's more important to me than whether I get my feelings hurt is whether or not I learn anything about you, me, us. What's more important to me than whether I chance being offended is whether I need to have my mind changed.

I see more people inflamed by the idea that we have difficult conversations than I do by the idea that we're not having enough of them. I wish more of us were willing to roll up our sleeves, tuck our hearts firmly back in our chests where they bloody well belong, and speak to one another about the things that matter, bravely and without reservation. We should, all of us, cease conflating "topic" with "individual."

[Jess]

Originally Posted by evolveme

I'll answer this question for me, because of the way that it relates to the Dear Femme thread in that I have insisted repeatedly that I prefer not to close the discussion to femmes-only.

I have absolutely zero "need to absolutely 'include" or, more hideously, a woman's (dear me) "weakness to fear excluding." What I do have, is a sincere desire for masculine people to participate secondarily to the discussion should they feel so inclined, and to have meaningful dialogue whenever they do, around how and whether their words are supportive, or conversely, not supportive, in the event that they - consciously or not - hold up an old paradigm of masculine-over thinking or action. We are having this same discussion among ourselves - how we support this paradigm. It's why the thread was created.

See, only-spaces do not personally serve me. They very well may serve other people and I honor that. I don't wish to trample on them or their spaces. But good, honest, gritty dialogue is more important to me. I believe there is important work to be done in all of our spaces and that this work necessitates hard conversations between and among all of us.

When I see one group holding up bars for its only-space, I see how that group is failing to acknowledge that there are really no bars holding up the subtext of our identities. It's going to offend some folks that I just said that, "subtext of our identities," but a lot of what creates our identities are the linguistic structures we create. And language, while mind-blowingly huge in the whole of who we are as human, just ain't all there is, y'all.

A woman is shut out of women's only space because her kind of woman does not equal your kind of woman. A self-identified male is shut out of a query on classism put to female-identified butches only. Why? Because of an underlying need for togetherness? Because someone who linguistically created an identity around "male" does not experience classism in the same way that other butches do? For reasons that are internal? And I should close a discussion of the femme experience, why? Because no one else can have anything relevant to say to us about it?

I'm not going to call a girl's only club house because what's more important to me than whether I get my feelings hurt is whether or not I learn anything about you, me, us. What's more important to me than whether I chance being offended is whether I need to have my mind changed.

I see more people inflamed by the idea that we have difficult conversations than I do by the idea that we're not having enough of them. I wish more of us were willing to roll up our sleeves, tuck our hearts firmly back in our chests where they bloody well belong, and speak to one another about the things that matter, bravely and without reservation. We should, all of us, cease conflating "topic" with "individual."

I sincerely thank you for expressing your opinion, evolveme. I will agree with you on the notion that yes, we all "should" be able to discuss "anything". I will however have to agree to disagree with you, in that I "do" think often times a "safe" space must be created for purpose of connecting with folks who are uniquely similar.

I quite simply, do not see it as a "bad thing". If in my "taking a backseat", as it may be interpreted by some, has aided in my learning how another group thinks then I do not see anything "bad" in that.

Perhaps I see things on a far too simplistic level. I see that if a group "wants" or "needs" safe space then let them have it. If someone reads something within that space that pertains to them, or their "group" then they can simply start a thread that engages different voices regarding the discussion.

I am not sure I agree with the "limited inclusion" theory. In that, as I interpret it.. "you can speak here, but only in the words "we" choose" as for me, that seems far more "silencing".

I don't think there is an easy way to resolve the creation of "safety" for any group, much less "sub-group". "We" as a collective, have thus far failed to do so. I truly believe it rests in the arms and actions of individuals and their personal walk through life. Which for me, is the dichotomy...The need for collective safe space ( for whatever select subgroup I seek ex: artists as QofQ mentioned) and the simultaneous need or desire to be integrated.

The dream of a common language eludes me still.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Jess

I sincerely thank you for expressing your opinion, evolveme. I will agree with you on the notion that yes, we all "should" be able to discuss "anything". I will however have to agree to disagree with you, in that I "do" think often times a "safe" space must be created for purpose of connecting with folks who are uniquely similar.

But, see, Jess, I never said they shouldn't exist, I only said that they weren't for me, and I went on to explain why I found them problematic. Further, "safe space" is a fallacy, even in a virtual, text-based world. Given that we're abiding the TOS, we really are all in charge of ourselves here and how we manage our own sense of "safety."

Originally Posted by Jess

I quite simply, do not see it as a "bad thing". If in my "taking a backseat", as it may be interpreted by some, has aided in my learning how another group thinks then I do not see anything "bad" in that.

I cannot imagine how anyone could interpret this position as a bad thing.

Originally Posted by Jess

<snip>
I am not sure I agree with the "limited inclusion" theory. In that, as I interpret it.. "you can speak here, but only in the words "we" choose" as for me, that seems far more "silencing".

I hope this isn't how you read Dear Femme. The idea is more that, if you're willing to engage with me, personally (because I'm the only one who has either been inclined or willing to do it) I'd like to talk about the ways that we sometimes believe we are being supportive (usually with rote language), but that given a second look, it can read as dismissive to a feminine person. If this has "felt silencing", I think it has more to do with an automatic defensiveness that our words were not heard the way we intended than to any real effort to silence. There is no effort to silence. (On the idea of silencing, I have a lot to say, but haven't made it to the Negotiating Silence thread yet.) And I did and do recognize your intention, but delivery does matter.

To wit:

I can't know if you're reading me in the tone with which I'm attempting to engage, but this conversation and you, as a deeply feeling and truly intelligent member of my community matter to me. I see how other femmes write a lot of "gently/s" and utilize emoticons when they do this, but that isn't who I am. I'm a straight shooter. I need you to know that this doesn't mean I do not respect you or that I don't feel I have nothing to learn from you. I do, and I'm sure I do.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by blush

I'm not sure who you're directing this question to? I can give you a woman's perspective, but many members of our transgendered community are not and never have been women. Perhaps their opinions/"take on things" may differ? Does that make sense?

As I read it, your question seems to give the "lesser of two evils." On the one hand, if I say I have to "include," then I have an absolute need for approval. If I say I fear "excluding" then I am weak. Could you clarify that?

Can I get some clarification please on the sentence which I bolded, are you saying that FTM's were never women to begin with?

[blush]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

Can I get some clarification please on the sentence which I bolded, are you saying that FTM's were never women to begin with?

I'll clarify, but then I'll hush because I realize it's not my place to speak for FTM's.

Female-bodied, yes, women, no. But again, I'm regretting writing that part of my post because I'm not FTM, and I'm not trying to speak for that community.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I was going to say, I am trans, FTM later on when I can afford it, right now I am female bodied and a woman wrapped in. I will never deny I am a female or a woman, even after my transitition.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by QueenofQueens

I totally understand the fears you're expressing. I get that as someone who doesn't want to contribute to the oppression or silencing of another group, you don't want to be characterized as one who would. It's difficult to refrain from feeling the need to defend yourself when things are said in ignorance and frustration.
That said, I believe, that it is possible for different groups of people to maintain safe space in order to share mutual, lived, experience and still build bridges with their allies.
To me, wanting to retain a little "personal" space within a bigger community is not about exclusion. I think it's about folks like you bearing witness to your experiences, without interruption, so that you have the fortitude and patience to build better bridges (and just be able to live) outside of that safe space.
I know that as an artist, I crave the company and insight of other artists sometimes. Sometimes I want to have a conversation about an issue I'm dealing with as an artist with other people who "get it" sans background story or explanations. This doesn't exclude the fact that I still love and need my non-artist patrons, allies, and friends.
I think the same is true of gender identities.
While I know it can be hard to feel as though you're "sitting on your hands", I think we can all work to be better allies to those who identify differently than we do. Repping people, sending supportive p.m.s, starting threads that extend an effort to engage in thoughtful dialogue, are all powerful, though seemingly small ways, to let people know that they've been heard and that you respect their self expression. Vis a vis, consistently being a good ally, and proceeding from a place of respect and kindness can have a huge impact on changing the way people think about you and people like you. The good ones (and most are at heart) always come around and that creates community.

I think this site can provide an extremely positive atmosphere of mutual respect that will afford all of us a voice if we just let ourselves, and each other, be heard.

The thanks button just isn't enough for the love that I have for this post.

I'd give you a hug, a high five and an orange creme push up pop for this post.

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

I was going to say, I am trans, FTM later on when I can afford it, right now I am female bodied and a woman wrapped in. I will never deny I am a female or a woman, even after my transitition.

And that is your journey. It's yours and yours alone and it's fantastic because it's YOURS.

HOWEVER...

Many people do not feel as you do. There are many who do not wish to acknowledge or identify that their bodies have any femininity at all. They are men, through and through, from the day they were born in the wrong body and/or with a birth defect until the day they die.

I don't want to put words in blush's mouth, but I think she and I share the experience of knowing others who have never seen themselves as women, despite what others around them see, and that is what I read in her post.

I love the diversity of our community. It's like walking into an ice cream shop full of a million and one flavors. I want to know everything about all of them, which ones have nuts, bubble gum, or berries in them as well as which ones are full-flavored and which are lactose or fat free. I've always been insatiable in my quest to learn more (about select things....I have no interest in the stock market or rebuilding my engine, but people...people I need to figure out) and I feel that being able to see into the minds of my fellow members allows me insight that I can't get anywhere else.

So, if someone were to put up a butches only thread, great. I get the need for a circle of commraderie and empathetic AND sympathetic bonding, I do. I feel that with my femme sisters sometimes.

I just don't know if I'm going to have my wits about me 24/7 enough to remember that, oh no....I can't post in this thread....I have to pm or rep that person instead. And then I begin to wonder if a person brings up a controversial point but only a select group can respond because it's a fill in the blank only type thread, just how many times that person is going to be repped or pm'd because it would be impolite or improper for the 112 people that thought up the exact same question I did to respond in the thread with one post that may clarify everything?

And then I realize that if they, like me, do not have a paid membership, how many of those pms are going to be bounced back to the questioning souls because we...the unpaid membershippers...have only 15 pm spots free for the taking?

And then the reps will fly by so fast that the one they are asking won't even see a fraction of them and then those who are repping in the hopes of finding clarification and knowledge will feel ignored...silenced...because there are so many reps going through that the one they are pming had no CLUE they even wrote. I wonder how much ill will and frustration that would foster?

These are some of my convoluted thoughts right now.