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Old 03-22-2012, 02:38 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by JAGG View Post
Well if it makes you feel any better, we wish we knew too. Sure would make things easier.

if you ever see a woman walking around with a 2x4 (either weilding or sticking out of her purse) with a chin/forehead/ tattoo that says FEMME you should probably take note.
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:11 PM   #42
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I have tried to be aware of the femmes around me, out and about...In the grocery store, at the gym, restaurants, etc., but it is really tough to know. I do not want to look like I am staring at a straight woman, who just happens to glance over and smile at me. A smile does not equal femme woman, it may just mean she is a happy and friendly straight woman.

I apologize to any femme woman, who I did not notice....I would love to had talked to you, get to know you, go out on a date with, that would have been really nice. However, I did not see you standing next to me....I did not see the 2x4 sticking out of your oversized handbag, the femme tattoo on your forehead or the rainbow femme chain around your neck. Damn, where are all the femme women in my community? I do not see them....Please stand up and be counted, I would love to meet you.
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:15 PM   #43
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I'm one of those that looks like a soccer mom...but I've found one thing that straight women generally do not do when making eye contact with a cute butch...and that's a wink to go with that smile.
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:56 PM   #44
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i find butches in general pretty guarded in public space. i can see why that happens, but i don't take too many chances. A friend of mine always lets them know that they have been seen and admired. i sometimes wish i were more like that, but i don't take the risk.
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:58 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by 1QuirkyKiwi View Post

This explains why I get a lot of interest from other Femmes. No offence is intended towards Butch’s when I say this; the ‘signals’ that I send out and maybe many of you Femmes who are seen as straight are far too subtle for them to pick up! It seems we need the 4x4s that Cajun dee has suggested! LOL!

There’s a new business venture; Cajun dee’s Butch Attention Grabbers! LOL!


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Originally Posted by JAGG View Post
Well if it makes you feel any better, we wish we knew too. Sure would make things easier.
I mentioned this in another thread, but butches and our more andro and masculine types get a lot of gruff. Sometimes, from the very beginning. So, it's my theory that they, as a coping mechanism maybe, tune a lot of the 'background' noise out when going about their daily business. It's unfortunate, but unless they see us, we're part of the 'background'.

I like the idea of a necklace and I like Jo's idea of adding that little bit of flirtation to that smile that says "Hey! I see you. Do you see me?"
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:08 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Gemme View Post
I mentioned this in another thread, but butches and our more andro and masculine types get a lot of gruff. Sometimes, from the very beginning. So, it's my theory that they, as a coping mechanism maybe, tune a lot of the 'background' noise out when going about their daily business. It's unfortunate, but unless they see us, we're part of the 'background'.

I like the idea of a necklace and I like Jo's idea of adding that little bit of flirtation to that smile that says "Hey! I see you. Do you see me?"
You know Gemme i think maybe you are on to something. I don't want to speak for "them" as i know you don't want to either, but it is sorta the vibe i get as well.

I know that i notice everything, everybody and am in tune to the background noise because it is relatively benign to me, being somewhat invisible as being gay. I only have to be "on guard" when i'm with my partner and get those claws out, willing and ready to kick A if needed. I'm thinking if i was always like that, had been in that situation continuously for years like that, that maybe i would tone out the background and get to the point that i didn't give a flying flip and in doing so, could potentially not "see" someone that was family.

So, if someone was doing that and a femme happened to smile at them, they may not see that anymore than they may see a hateful glare.

I don't know but it sorta makes sense to me when i think about it. I hope some more butches/masculine peeps would care to elaborate on this.



That is a really cool way to see it. Thanks for sharing that.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:44 PM   #47
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I will share my own opinion....and it is MINE alone...I am not speaking to, about, or alluding to anyone except ME!!! grins..
When I am out and about, I am not out there, cruising, looking, flirting, or any of that...I may be grocery shopping, dining out, or any such daily kinds of things...so if a femme (s) is in my immediate area, since I am not "looking" then, yes she/they may very well be a part of the landscape, so to speak. If one should flirt with me, I would wink back, smile, or such. However if I am with a date, a partner, or a S.O...then I would never be so disrespectful to that person I am with. So, again, the femme (s) would be invisible....so to speak...
I am NOT oblivious to any beautiful person...be it whatever gender...and there is nothing wrong with appreciating anyone's beauty...when done with respect...for self, for S.O., and the other person....I DO notice my background and space..and am constantly aware of things, people, and places...that comes from 21 yrs. of being an ER Nurse..you have to see all, know all, and be cognizant of this.
I guess for me, I am only recently aware of this "invisibility" to our community. About a year ago, I was dating a femme...and when we went out in public, it was very obvious I am "butch" and gay...but not so with her..only when she was out with me....we could be in a grocery store..and women...would grin at me or wink at me, or even turn around..some women even whistled at me as I walked past....I said "gee, what is that all about"? She said well it is obvious you are butch, but it is not obvious I am a lesbian unless I am out with you or any other butch (I know women go out with other genders BUT I am referring to butch only here as I am butch ID.'ed)...otherwise I am invisible. It was then I became aware of it. I totally understand what you ladies are saying, and I "get" it.
An example that comes to mind is this...ok, someone is a superhero...who dons regular clothes in day time and wears a superhero costume at night...if seen by anyone in daily wear...one wouldn't know they are a superhero...BUT come night, the costume is donned..and you KNOW that is a superhero..visible ONLY by the costume, otherwise unkown....now I want to say, this in NO WAY means femmes to don a superhero costume, NOR do I see you in one..this is a generic example...and in no way deflects anything except an example...trying to make my point.
BUT let me say this...for those of you who feel invisible....you are NOT, to me anyway, because I can feel you, sense you, and I KNOW the feminine mystique, the feminine power, and I respect that..on so many levels...and I "get" it. I will always acknowledge the greatness, the power of you, and respect it. Don those cute little "femme" necklaces, the forehead tattoos, or whatever else you want to...BUT I don't ever need a 2x4...I will SEE you..I will hear you roar, and I will respect YOU ALL...you are after all, a WOMAN first and foremost! You are ALL visible, all beautiful, and all that I need in my world...xoxoxo...Clay...
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:51 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Gemme View Post
I mentioned this in another thread, but butches and our more andro and masculine types get a lot of gruff. Sometimes, from the very beginning. So, it's my theory that they, as a coping mechanism maybe, tune a lot of the 'background' noise out when going about their daily business. It's unfortunate, but unless they see us, we're part of the 'background'.

I like the idea of a necklace and I like Jo's idea of adding that little bit of flirtation to that smile that says "Hey! I see you. Do you see me?"
Yes I think this is very true Gemme. Many of us learn to tune out others' reactions to us as a coping mechanism. It just makes life easier to tune out and not care so much what people think of us. So when a femme is trying to get our attention or give us a smile or something it may not necessarily be that we don't recognize you are femme, but that we just don't notice someone is paying attention to us.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:00 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Cajun_dee View Post

if you ever see a woman walking around with a 2x4 (either weilding or sticking out of her purse) with a chin/forehead/ tattoo that says FEMME you should probably take note.
Well the 2x4 would really attract me Dee!!!!!!!! I would figure 1 of 2 things. Either she is really skilled in DIY home remodels in which case PERK and SWOON, or she needs a butch to help her in which case , it would be her lucky day if I was single at the time. LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:28 PM   #50
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What a great thread. It is comforting to know others are dealing with the very same issues about invisibility. I work for a large hospice unit located on a floor of one of our major hospitals. Day in and day out I see butches from all departments throughout the hospital. Let's just say it could be a lovely buffet. However, even getting them to simply make eye contact is a feat all within itself. It 'seems' they are always looking down for some reason. I think Gemme and Belle alluded to some of the reasons in an earlier post.
I am a femme. I have been judicious as to who I share my 'dynamic' (butch + femme). More than once the response has been: "You are too attractive to be "that." Or, "I didn't think lesbians wore heels, dresses...you know, acted like you do...." (I am not at all trying to be pompous but those were real responses). Looking back, my outing myself may not have been the right thing to do with some but that is their issue not mine. But....we (many femmes) are watching our lives march by simply by being in this cloak of invisibility. I want mostly to simply validate a butch's 'butchness'...for being who she/hy is to the world. When I see 'her' down the hall I would love to simply walk up and say 'We are in this together.' But, something still stops me. Maybe in some ways it works the same way for butches. I just don't know.
I heartily agree there must be some way to communicate to them that we are here and we want to know you, validate you, date you, adore you, love you (not all in the same day, though).
I think some of the brightest folks are here on the Planet. Surely we can bridge this gaping, absent link to know these butches. We want you. You enhance our world. Now we just need to know how to tell you or show you this.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:38 PM   #51
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I've had a Femme self identify herself to me ONCE, and let me tell you, it couldn't have come at a better time, too!!

I was in the hospital a few years ago having a total knee replacement and those idiots (the surgical staff) put a LATEX foley (urinary) catheter in me. Well, it shut my kidneys down and was super painful. I kept telling my nurses how badly it was hurting, but they'd all dismiss me and tell me "Oh, no one is comfortable with those". I actually went into a full reaction with that and got little to no sympathy.

Until the second day, when I got a wonderful woman named "Lisa" for my nurse. Lisa was a Femme, thankG-dinSunnyHeaven!!!! She told me so, since I was just in my first year of transition at that time, but she recognized some of my more subtle changes and knew I was trans. When she introduced herself to me at the first of her shift, she gently leaned down and whispered in my ear, "Don't worry, you have "family" here and I'm going to take good care of you.". I know I had tears in my eyes when I realized what she was saying and I asked her, almost joyfully, "Are you a Femme??", to which she smiled and said, "Let me put it this way....My significant other is very masculine." Well, I told her my sad story of hurting so badly, and no one would listen, and could she please check the catheter and see if something was wrong. Well, she ended up pulling that damned thing out and she told me it was latex!!! She saw to it that I immediately got some medication to take my allergic reaction down. It took about a week, total, to get the reaction under control, but my kidneys finally started up and making urine again. I don't know what I'd have done without Lisa, that wonderful Femme, and her determination to take such good care of me. Thank G-d for her!!!!

Ladies, you DO make a difference to us, bois, boys, Butches and fellows. Don't be afraid to take those extra measures to let us know who you are. You might be quite pleasantly surprised!!!

~Theo~
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:57 PM   #52
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I mentioned this in another thread, but butches and our more andro and masculine types get a lot of gruff. Sometimes, from the very beginning. So, it's my theory that they, as a coping mechanism maybe, tune a lot of the 'background' noise out when going about their daily business. It's unfortunate, but unless they see us, we're part of the 'background'.

I like the idea of a necklace and I like Jo's idea of adding that little bit of flirtation to that smile that says "Hey! I see you. Do you see me?"

I think that is partially true, at least for some of us.

I make eye contact, if I get that smile Jo talks about in return then I know. But if I make eye contact and I get nothing back, then I just go about my day.

I do not walk looking down, on the contraire, I always walk with my head up high, but I do tune out a lot of the background noise as I go about my life.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:35 PM   #53
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I came out at the age of 49. I was the absolute PICTURE of "invisibility"!! My first gf was very butch, and I only ever felt like I was seen and perhaps recognized as family when I was with her. I plastered my car with Pride bumper stickers, just to get SOMEONE to recognize...no, ACKNOWLEDGE me! I cut my hair short, spiked it up, cause I thought that might make me look more "gay". *grinning....sheesh!*

So now, 11 yrs later, I still am invisible. I don't know if it is my age that does that, or what. Yeah, I still have the short spiked hair (well, it spikes sometimes!) But even when I am around family, I STILL get questioned on being a Femme!! Had a couple of friends over tonite, and one of them (she looks very butch, but swears she isn't) asked me, quite seriously, on whether I was Butch or Femme! I could not believe it!

As for the idea of catching a Butch's eye and winking, there is no way in the world I could do that! I have smiled at them, even gave a little nod, but nothing.
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:17 AM   #54
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Yeah, I'll never forget walking hand in hand with an ex girlfriend. She was quite butch and I... I was just me. A group of lesbians walked past and every one of them gave her the nod. Me? I was just invisible.

I was really not impressed.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:28 AM   #55
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I don't know what the solution is? I experience everything you and everyone else has talked about, but I still have no solution. I am always going to be a high femme. I am always going to look "straight". It is just part of the femme package, I guess. When I did not have a girlfriend, it was really difficult meeting people as well. I am super shy. The only time I notice butches checking me out is when I am with another butch (go figure). Oh well. Good luck on your journey femme sistah!

:-D
I guess I'll just have to get more aggressive with my behavior toward my butch counterparts. I'm like you, in the sense that I'm a bit shy and more subtle with my approach. Oh well... (sigh)
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:30 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Quintease View Post
Yeah, I'll never forget walking hand in hand with an ex girlfriend. She was quite butch and I... I was just me. A group of lesbians walked past and every one of them gave her the nod. Me? I was just invisible.

I was really not impressed.
Wow, I don't know how I'd react to that. Not only is there femme invisibility within the hetero world, it exists withing the queer world as well.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:35 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by socialjustice_fsu View Post
What a great thread. It is comforting to know others are dealing with the very same issues about invisibility. I work for a large hospice unit located on a floor of one of our major hospitals. Day in and day out I see butches from all departments throughout the hospital. Let's just say it could be a lovely buffet. However, even getting them to simply make eye contact is a feat all within itself. It 'seems' they are always looking down for some reason. I think Gemme and Belle alluded to some of the reasons in an earlier post.
I am a femme. I have been judicious as to who I share my 'dynamic' (butch + femme). More than once the response has been: "You are too attractive to be "that." Or, "I didn't think lesbians wore heels, dresses...you know, acted like you do...." (I am not at all trying to be pompous but those were real responses). Looking back, my outing myself may not have been the right thing to do with some but that is their issue not mine. But....we (many femmes) are watching our lives march by simply by being in this cloak of invisibility. I want mostly to simply validate a butch's 'butchness'...for being who she/hy is to the world. When I see 'her' down the hall I would love to simply walk up and say 'We are in this together.' But, something still stops me. Maybe in some ways it works the same way for butches. I just don't know.
I heartily agree there must be some way to communicate to them that we are here and we want to know you, validate you, date you, adore you, love you (not all in the same day, though).
I think some of the brightest folks are here on the Planet. Surely we can bridge this gaping, absent link to know these butches. We want you. You enhance our world. Now we just need to know how to tell you or show you this.
@Social Justice:

I appreciate you sharing your words. I really wish there were a better way to communicate with our counterparts in a way that wouldn't make us not appear to be screaming out in desperation! LOL.

Have a great day.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:38 AM   #58
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I will share my own opinion....and it is MINE alone...I am not speaking to, about, or alluding to anyone except ME!!! grins..
When I am out and about, I am not out there, cruising, looking, flirting, or any of that...I may be grocery shopping, dining out, or any such daily kinds of things...so if a femme (s) is in my immediate area, since I am not "looking" then, yes she/they may very well be a part of the landscape, so to speak. If one should flirt with me, I would wink back, smile, or such. However if I am with a date, a partner, or a S.O...then I would never be so disrespectful to that person I am with. So, again, the femme (s) would be invisible....so to speak...
I am NOT oblivious to any beautiful person...be it whatever gender...and there is nothing wrong with appreciating anyone's beauty...when done with respect...for self, for S.O., and the other person....I DO notice my background and space..and am constantly aware of things, people, and places...that comes from 21 yrs. of being an ER Nurse..you have to see all, know all, and be cognizant of this.
I guess for me, I am only recently aware of this "invisibility" to our community. About a year ago, I was dating a femme...and when we went out in public, it was very obvious I am "butch" and gay...but not so with her..only when she was out with me....we could be in a grocery store..and women...would grin at me or wink at me, or even turn around..some women even whistled at me as I walked past....I said "gee, what is that all about"? She said well it is obvious you are butch, but it is not obvious I am a lesbian unless I am out with you or any other butch (I know women go out with other genders BUT I am referring to butch only here as I am butch ID.'ed)...otherwise I am invisible. It was then I became aware of it. I totally understand what you ladies are saying, and I "get" it.
An example that comes to mind is this...ok, someone is a superhero...who dons regular clothes in day time and wears a superhero costume at night...if seen by anyone in daily wear...one wouldn't know they are a superhero...BUT come night, the costume is donned..and you KNOW that is a superhero..visible ONLY by the costume, otherwise unkown....now I want to say, this in NO WAY means femmes to don a superhero costume, NOR do I see you in one..this is a generic example...and in no way deflects anything except an example...trying to make my point.
BUT let me say this...for those of you who feel invisible....you are NOT, to me anyway, because I can feel you, sense you, and I KNOW the feminine mystique, the feminine power, and I respect that..on so many levels...and I "get" it. I will always acknowledge the greatness, the power of you, and respect it. Don those cute little "femme" necklaces, the forehead tattoos, or whatever else you want to...BUT I don't ever need a 2x4...I will SEE you..I will hear you roar, and I will respect YOU ALL...you are after all, a WOMAN first and foremost! You are ALL visible, all beautiful, and all that I need in my world...xoxoxo...Clay...
@Clay: What sweet, kind words! They made my day. Ms. Scarlett is a lucky woman.

Have a lovely day.
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Old 03-23-2012, 08:45 AM   #59
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I propose the development of a new Iphone app called:

femme visibility.

it will work like a GPS tracking device.
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Old 03-23-2012, 09:16 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by kannon View Post
I propose the development of a new Iphone app called:

femme visibility.

it will work like a GPS tracking device.
They really DO have apps for everything, why not this??

(wondering how, and in what manner, all us Femmes will be 'tagged". Will it be a small, under-the-skin GPS tracker?)
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