Religious Holidays in Public Schools

SassyLeo · 07-19-2010, 09:52 PM

I was listening to OPB (NPR) today and they had a segment on school holidays. In NY, there is a large Muslim population and they seek to add 2 of the Muslim holidays to the school calendar.

Apparently the city schools already have Jewish holidays (my schools did not, so I went to school) in addition to the "traditional" Christian holidays.

They have 11 observed holidays on the school calendar and none are Muslim - or any other religion aside from Jewish & Christian.

What do you think?

SassyLeo · 07-19-2010, 10:58 PM

I'm on the fence between -be more inclusive- and -remove all holidays-

I absolutely support inclusivity AND I also think, how many religions are there in the world that could potentially be incorporated? And does that push us further into the un-separation of church and state?

cane · 07-19-2010, 10:59 PM

Where I live about 1/3 of the population are muslims. We don't have any official muslim holidays but the families that celebrate holidays of any religion that isn't christianity usually just go right ahead and keep their kids out of school, and for the most part schools are o.k. with that.

Futher on, when it comes to ramadan for example, some schools have delayed the start of the day to accomodate the kids that can not eat during the day and who usually, during that time, has been up very late in the night. Just one example.

Personally I think it's a beautiful thing when cultures are trying to come together like this so I would welcome any change...

Gayla · 07-19-2010, 11:03 PM

When I was a kid, I was always jealous of everyone that celebrated things that weren't scheduled holidays because it meant they got extra days off!

I think it would be interesting to see something completely new implemented where each student, and staff member, got a certain number of days off and could use them as they choose. Similar to how many employers give PTO as opposed to holidays/sick leave. Of course, that would be a scheduling nightmare for staff coverage but it would be interesting.

SassyLeo · 07-19-2010, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cane

Where I live about 1/3 of the population are muslims. We don't have any official muslim holidays but the families that celebrate holidays of any religion that isn't christianity usually just go right ahead and keep their kids out of school, and for the most part schools are o.k. with that.

Futher on, when it comes to ramadan for example, some schools have delayed the start of the day to accomodate the kids that can not eat during the day and who usually, during that time, has been up very late in the night. Just one example.

Personally I think it's a beautiful thing when cultures are trying to come together like this so I would welcome any change...

Are the kids required to take sick days for being out of school? I hope they wouldn't be...

SassyLeo · 07-19-2010, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gayla

When I was a kid, I was always jealous of everyone that celebrated things that weren't scheduled holidays because it meant they got extra days off!

I think it would be interesting to see something completely new implemented where each student, and staff member, got a certain number of days off and could use them as they choose. Similar to how many employers give PTO as opposed to holidays/sick leave. Of course, that would be a scheduling nightmare for staff coverage but it would be interesting.

This is sort of what I was thinking. Just have "holidays" not necessarily related to any religion, like "spring break", but have a few days randomly throughout the year for use of holidays... of course, then they wouldn't be on the specific day, like Yom Kippur or Ramadan, etc.

Corkey · 07-19-2010, 11:16 PM

I think schools shouldn't have religious holidays and should take all of them out of the school calendars. Separation of church and state. Yes I believed this as a kid.

Gayla · 07-19-2010, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

This is sort of what I was thinking. Just have "holidays" not necessarily related to any religion, like "spring break", but have a few days randomly throughout the year for use of holidays... of course, then they wouldn't be on the specific day, like Yom Kippur or Ramadan, etc.

I think you would have to keep in the major christian holidays, if the majority of students are christian, like christmas, etc. but then each student has a pool they can use for their own individual holidays.

I attended public school so I don't really know much about private/religious school. I would assume that a private school would get to set their own holidays but do they also recognize the usual major holidays. Even the one's based outside their beliefs?

OK, that was my probably bad attempt at PC-ly asking if like Jewish schools take a "winter break" that includes Christmas and New Year's just because they are recognized as national holidays in addition to being religious holidays?

cane · 07-19-2010, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

Are the kids required to take sick days for being out of school? I hope they wouldn't be...

No sick days, since they are not sick, but this is not an official term of action, it's just something the teachers has begun to do/let happen in all fairness.

But yes, a limited number of days for each student would maybe be a good idea, but of course tricky when it comes to scheduling

SassyLeo · 07-19-2010, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gayla

I think you would have to keep in the major christian holidays, if the majority of students are christian, like christmas, etc. but then each student has a pool they can use for their own individual holidays.

I attended public school so I don't really know much about private/religious school. I would assume that a private school would get to set their own holidays but do they also recognize the usual major holidays. Even the one's based outside their beliefs?

OK, that was my probably bad attempt at PC-ly asking if like Jewish schools take a "winter break" that includes Christmas and New Year's just because they are recognized as national holidays in addition to being religious holidays?

Well as an example: Portland Jewish Academy takes a winter break in December for about 2 weeks, but it is not because of Christmas, it is "winter break". Work/school are actually permitted during Chanukah, but not Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, etc. which are in September and don't coincide with any Christian holiday. Parts of Passover are not really permitted for work or school, but Easter falls on a Sunday and kids don't normally get time off for that...more like "spring break" which is not always right after Easter.

AtLast · 07-19-2010, 11:34 PM

Since I doubt that schools will not take away holidays, I would say then other religious holidays should be included. However, I don’t think that any religious holiday should be honored in public schools.

I don't know why breaks can't just be called Winter, Spring Breaks, or Mid-Term, etc. It would be best to have these just sorted into the days allowed off in public school calendars and not based upon the holiday breaks utilized now, like Christmas or Easter.

The holidays that are represented by now are Christian and that does leave out other religions (or non-religious people). The public schools in the US are part of a federal education department, thus, ought to align with Separation of Church and State in the Constitution.

I just feel that any religious (or spiritual, for that matter) honoring of a holiday is a private matter for families to decide upon. Public schools are secular institutions.

If we can make adjustments to things like year-around school terms, we can change this!

Gayla · 07-19-2010, 11:35 PM

Hmm, yeah, that would make scheduling a nightmare. I've never been fond of "majority rules" kind of things, even when it makes sense.

Looking forward to what everyone has to say about this one!

SassyLeo · 07-19-2010, 11:43 PM

I just realized I should have put PUBLIC schools in the title and poll options...I think everyone so far knew that I meant public, but I will ask Linus to change it.

Corkey · 07-19-2010, 11:46 PM

Kids are in public schools to learn, not to keep having religious holidays. If kids go to religious schools they can abide by that religious schools curriculum.

Lynn · 07-20-2010, 12:42 AM

I don't think that schools should teach religion or have a religious based curriculum. But, I do think that schools should teach respect, including respect for other religions and other points of view. I don't see that allowing time off for personal beliefs is a violation of the idea of separation of church and state.

I think there are too many days off in the school year, in general. Most of the time off is not "religious" even if it's scheduled around religious holidays. I do think it would be positive for students and useful for curriculum planning, if holidays of major religions were given. Not any old holiday, but the holy days when students would be staying home anyway. I doubt if there will ever be scheduled classes on Christmas. So, it makes sense to me that Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur as well as the major Muslim holy days should be given. I also think school should be provided year-round, with semesters and various shorter periods of time off that both schools and parents can plan for.

Diva · 07-20-2010, 04:38 AM

Ya know? I'm wondering just how long it has been "The Rule" to have those 2 weeks off for what used to be called "Christmas Vacation"? But now, of course, we must be PC and call it "Winter Break".

As far as the length of the school year....I believe it was created in answer to the agrarian society in 'the old days' and set by the planting/harvesting schedule. School lasted around 4 to 5 months back in the oldern days. The farmers would certainly have poo~poohed the idea of a year~round school. (As would I!!!)

It's a very interesting discussion.....and I do believe it would take an act of Congress to change tradition and do away with that 2-week (or thereabouts) break in late December.

School years fit the overall culture....in Italy, for example, school doesn't begin until mid-September and goes through July. August? Oh hell no. No school in August at all!

Neat discussion.....and I'm fairly certain I didn't contribute much at all!

Chancie · 07-20-2010, 05:44 AM

I am not Christian, but I do enjoy celebrating Christian holidays with my friends and family who share those traditions. I very happily buy Christmas presents for the little kids in my life and I love making Easter baskets too.

I like having an extended period of time off for Christmas, but of course we celebrate those holidays in publically funded institutions because most of our 'Founding Fathers' were Christian.

Soon · 07-20-2010, 07:13 AM

I think there should be a pre-determined amount of School Breaks without any official naming of them--besides a Break.

In Australia, the year was divided into terms--after every three months of school, a two week break was given. In December/January it was summer break which lasted approximately six weeks if I recall. I really liked this system; there was always a break to look forward to instead of long stretches without a rest (for all concerned). There was no *official* naming or links/ties to any religious holiday--they existed solely as School Breaks.

In North America, yes some of our Breaks were designed around Christian holidays; however, I think any affiliation to the Christian roots of these holidays should now be removed--in a pluralistic society and in a publicly funded system, I don't see the need to favour one religious holiday over any other any longer.

I am not sure to do about Easter though; how to get rid of that (in Canada, students get Good Friday AND Easter Monday off) without calling it Easter--and this is in public schools. However, we also have one religion whose school boards are entirely government funded (R.C) in two provinces.

I don't want more religious holidays included in a public school's calendar, and I want the ones that exist renamed into neutral non-religious breaks.

If families want to remove their children for a religious holiday, that is their prerogative and all they need to do is call in their absence.

UofMfan · 07-20-2010, 08:17 AM

I haven't voted because I don't see a choice in your poll that reflects my opinion, which is the same as HSIN.

I believe in the separation of Church and State, even if said separation is getting blurrier by the minute. And also believe that there should be breaks during the school year, otherwise there would be burn out in the parts of both the students and teachers. I think those breaks should be named according to the time of the year, season or whatnot, but not to reflect any one religion.

I live in a country were we have 17 legal holidays, At least ten are religious. The country was also legally known, until about 5 years ago, as "The Country of Our Sacred Heart", even though our Constitution, rewritten in 1991 clearly defines the separation of Church and State. The thing here though, is that about 75% of the kids here go to Private schools and of those 80% are religious, and of those, 90% are Catholic. I say this because I can't foresee any change regarding religious holidays happening any time soon here.

So to even consider a change here would be dramatic at best. I do believe it should be done in the States but I can see the fight from the religious right already. During the Bush years the religious right was predominant in our culture and I think they are trying to make a comeback. All I can think of is the legal battle about "prayers in schools" to predict how difficult this would become.

That is all for now.

Soon · 07-20-2010, 08:24 AM

I voted the option "I think we need to take all holidays out of school calendars" b/c in my head I thought that meant removing the nomenclature of religious holidays. I didn't think that actually having NO breaks would be part of the options but maybe I am mistaken.

Of course, I think holidays/breaks should remain (!) but should be named or listed on school calendars without any religious affiliation.

View Poll Results: what do you think about adding holidays to school calendars?
I think we need to be more inclusive and add other religious holidays	39	41.49%
I think we need to pare it down, we have too many	11	11.70%
I think we need to take all religious holidays out of public school calendars	27	28.72%
I don't care	17	18.09%
Voters: 94. You may not vote on this poll

07-19-2010, 09:52 PM	#1
SassyLeo Is Grateful How Do You Identify?: Queer Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: Engaged Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The PDX Posts: 1,526 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 846 Thanked 1,584 Times in 622 Posts Rep Power: 856201	Religious Holidays in Public Schools I was listening to OPB (NPR) today and they had a segment on school holidays. In NY, there is a large Muslim population and they seek to add 2 of the Muslim holidays to the school calendar. Apparently the city schools already have Jewish holidays (my schools did not, so I went to school) in addition to the "traditional" Christian holidays. They have 11 observed holidays on the school calendar and none are Muslim - or any other religion aside from Jewish & Christian. What do you think? __________________ Joy is the best makeup -Anne Lamott Last edited by SassyLeo; 07-19-2010 at 11:10 PM. Reason: Typo

07-19-2010, 10:58 PM	#2
SassyLeo Is Grateful How Do You Identify?: Queer Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: Engaged Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The PDX Posts: 1,526 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 846 Thanked 1,584 Times in 622 Posts Rep Power: 856201	I'm on the fence between -be more inclusive- and -remove all holidays- I absolutely support inclusivity AND I also think, how many religions are there in the world that could potentially be incorporated? And does that push us further into the un-separation of church and state? __________________ Joy is the best makeup -Anne Lamott

07-19-2010, 10:59 PM	#3
cane Member How Do You Identify?: male identified butch Relationship Status: Married Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sweden Posts: 294 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 119 Thanked 358 Times in 123 Posts Rep Power: 1030322	Where I live about 1/3 of the population are muslims. We don't have any official muslim holidays but the families that celebrate holidays of any religion that isn't christianity usually just go right ahead and keep their kids out of school, and for the most part schools are o.k. with that. Futher on, when it comes to ramadan for example, some schools have delayed the start of the day to accomodate the kids that can not eat during the day and who usually, during that time, has been up very late in the night. Just one example. Personally I think it's a beautiful thing when cultures are trying to come together like this so I would welcome any change... __________________ "Vivamus, mea Lesbia, atque amemus"

07-19-2010, 11:16 PM	#7
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,299 Times in 6,640 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	I think schools shouldn't have religious holidays and should take all of them out of the school calendars. Separation of church and state. Yes I believed this as a kid. __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

07-19-2010, 11:03 PM	#4
Gayla Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Kinky Butch Top Preferred Pronoun?: I'm not picky Relationship Status: She makes me dance like a fool and forget how to breathe. Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: SF CA Posts: 3,229 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 877 Thanked 7,078 Times in 1,966 Posts Rep Power: 0	When I was a kid, I was always jealous of everyone that celebrated things that weren't scheduled holidays because it meant they got extra days off! I think it would be interesting to see something completely new implemented where each student, and staff member, got a certain number of days off and could use them as they choose. Similar to how many employers give PTO as opposed to holidays/sick leave. Of course, that would be a scheduling nightmare for staff coverage but it would be interesting.

07-19-2010, 11:34 PM	#11
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,829 Times in 3,199 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Since I doubt that schools will not take away holidays, I would say then other religious holidays should be included. However, I don’t think that any *religious* holiday should be honored in public schools. I don't know why breaks can't just be called Winter, Spring Breaks, or Mid-Term, etc. It would be best to have these just sorted into the days allowed off in public school calendars and not based upon the holiday breaks utilized now, like Christmas or Easter. The holidays that are represented by now are Christian and that does leave out other religions (or non-religious people). The public schools in the US are part of a federal education department, thus, ought to align with Separation of Church and State in the Constitution. I just feel that any religious (or spiritual, for that matter) honoring of a holiday is a private matter for families to decide upon. Public schools are secular institutions. If we can make adjustments to things like year-around school terms, we can change this!

07-19-2010, 11:35 PM	#12
Gayla Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Kinky Butch Top Preferred Pronoun?: I'm not picky Relationship Status: She makes me dance like a fool and forget how to breathe. Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: SF CA Posts: 3,229 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 877 Thanked 7,078 Times in 1,966 Posts Rep Power: 0	Hmm, yeah, that would make scheduling a nightmare. I've never been fond of "majority rules" kind of things, even when it makes sense. Looking forward to what everyone has to say about this one!

07-19-2010, 11:43 PM	#13
SassyLeo Is Grateful How Do You Identify?: Queer Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: Engaged Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The PDX Posts: 1,526 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 846 Thanked 1,584 Times in 622 Posts Rep Power: 856201	I just realized I should have put PUBLIC schools in the title and poll options...I think everyone so far knew that I meant public, but I will ask Linus to change it. __________________ Joy is the best makeup -Anne Lamott

07-19-2010, 11:46 PM	#14
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,299 Times in 6,640 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	Kids are in public schools to learn, not to keep having religious holidays. If kids go to religious schools they can abide by that religious schools curriculum. __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

07-20-2010, 12:42 AM	#15
Lynn Member How Do You Identify?: Unabashed Feminine Lesbian Preferred Pronoun?: Her, She Relationship Status: Married! Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 689 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,499 Thanked 2,416 Times in 504 Posts Rep Power: 9668974	I don't think that schools should teach religion or have a religious based curriculum. But, I do think that schools should teach respect, including respect for other religions and other points of view. I don't see that allowing time off for personal beliefs is a violation of the idea of separation of church and state. I think there are too many days off in the school year, in general. Most of the time off is not "religious" even if it's scheduled around religious holidays. I do think it would be positive for students and useful for curriculum planning, if holidays of major religions were given. Not any old holiday, but the holy days when students would be staying home anyway. I doubt if there will ever be scheduled classes on Christmas. So, it makes sense to me that Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur as well as the major Muslim holy days should be given. I also think school should be provided year-round, with semesters and various shorter periods of time off that both schools and parents can plan for. __________________ In the flush of love's light we dare be brave And suddenly we see that love costs all we are and will ever be. Yet it is only love which sets us free. Maya Angelou Wedding Photos: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=22b092b98c

07-20-2010, 04:38 AM	#16
Diva Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Diva Preferred Pronoun?: Diva Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Chez Diva Posts: 11,879 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,263 Thanked 17,180 Times in 5,238 Posts Rep Power: 0	Ya know? I'm wondering just how long it has been "The Rule" to have those 2 weeks off for what used to be called "Christmas Vacation"? But now, of course, we must be PC and call it "Winter Break". As far as the length of the school year....I believe it was created in answer to the agrarian society in 'the old days' and set by the planting/harvesting schedule. School lasted around 4 to 5 months back in the oldern days. The farmers would certainly have poo~poohed the idea of a year~round school. (As would I!!!) It's a very interesting discussion.....and I do believe it would take an act of Congress to change tradition and do away with that 2-week (or thereabouts) break in late December. School years fit the overall culture....in Italy, for example, school doesn't begin until mid-September and goes through July. August? Oh hell no. No school in August at all! Neat discussion.....and I'm fairly certain I didn't contribute much at all!

07-20-2010, 05:44 AM	#17
Chancie Senior Member How Do You Identify?: queer femme-inist Relationship Status: I'm lucky. Join Date: May 2010 Location: Western Mass Posts: 3,697 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,217 Thanked 14,352 Times in 2,669 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	I am not Christian, but I do enjoy celebrating Christian holidays with my friends and family who share those traditions. I very happily buy Christmas presents for the little kids in my life and I love making Easter baskets too. I like having an extended period of time off for Christmas, but of course we celebrate those holidays in publically funded institutions because most of our 'Founding Fathers' were Christian.

07-20-2010, 07:13 AM	#18
Soon Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: femme Relationship Status: attached Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: . Posts: 6,896 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 29,046 Thanked 13,118 Times in 3,391 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	I think there should be a pre-determined amount of School Breaks without any official naming of them--besides a Break. In Australia, the year was divided into terms--after every three months of school, a two week break was given. In December/January it was summer break which lasted approximately six weeks if I recall. I really liked this system; there was always a break to look forward to instead of long stretches without a rest (for all concerned). There was no official naming or links/ties to any religious holiday--they existed solely as School Breaks. In North America, yes some of our Breaks were designed around Christian holidays; however, I think any affiliation to the Christian roots of these holidays should now be removed--in a pluralistic society and in a publicly funded system, I don't see the need to favour one religious holiday over any other any longer. I am not sure to do about Easter though; how to get rid of that (in Canada, students get Good Friday AND Easter Monday off) without calling it Easter--and this is in public schools. However, we also have one religion whose school boards are entirely government funded (R.C) in two provinces. I don't want more religious holidays included in a public school's calendar, and I want the ones that exist renamed into neutral non-religious breaks. If families want to remove their children for a religious holiday, that is their prerogative and all they need to do is call in their absence. Last edited by Soon; 07-20-2010 at 07:20 AM. Reason: morning grammar blahs

07-20-2010, 08:17 AM	#19
UofMfan Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Relationship Status: A very happy Mr. Grumpy Cat Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Neither here or there Posts: 7,987 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 27,733 Thanked 18,942 Times in 4,709 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	I haven't voted because I don't see a choice in your poll that reflects my opinion, which is the same as HSIN. I believe in the separation of Church and State, even if said separation is getting blurrier by the minute. And also believe that there should be breaks during the school year, otherwise there would be burn out in the parts of both the students and teachers. I think those breaks should be named according to the time of the year, season or whatnot, but not to reflect any one religion. I live in a country were we have 17 legal holidays, At least ten are religious. The country was also legally known, until about 5 years ago, as "The Country of Our Sacred Heart", even though our Constitution, rewritten in 1991 clearly defines the separation of Church and State. The thing here though, is that about 75% of the kids here go to Private schools and of those 80% are religious, and of those, 90% are Catholic. I say this because I can't foresee any change regarding religious holidays happening any time soon here. So to even consider a change here would be dramatic at best. I do believe it should be done in the States but I can see the fight from the religious right already. During the Bush years the religious right was predominant in our culture and I think they are trying to make a comeback. All I can think of is the legal battle about "prayers in schools" to predict how difficult this would become. That is all for now.

07-20-2010, 08:24 AM	#20
Soon Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: femme Relationship Status: attached Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: . Posts: 6,896 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 29,046 Thanked 13,118 Times in 3,391 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	Clarification I voted the option "I think we need to take all holidays out of school calendars" b/c in my head I thought that meant removing the nomenclature of religious holidays. I didn't think that actually having NO breaks would be part of the options but maybe I am mistaken. Of course, I think holidays/breaks should remain (!) but should be named or listed on school calendars without any religious affiliation.