The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility

[candy_coated_bitch]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

The descriptors you used in the post to *me* are assigned markers of hierarchy... Femme has no High ----- Low, we- just are. For me it's my gender so..... I can't and won't fall into the trap of assigning "value" to Femme. I'd like to address the stuff about Femmes of Color and our experiences but I'll take the chance and be transparent and say I'm not comfortable cause there was some hostility in the posts regarding a WOC's perception about race/identify/gender/Femme...


Candy, I'm going to come back after work and share my experience as a Femme who chose to live with a cis gender man and the trials of holding on to Femme

Hang in there sister!

Snowy, I would really appreciate hearing anything you have to say.

I am sorry that the environment here feels too hostile to you to be able to speak to your experience as a woman of color. I ALWAYS get kind of concerned when a conversation about race only includes the perspective of white folks, and I did have that concern here. For the record, I would welcome your perspective on that but also understand if you don't feel able to share it.

I don't intend to come across as hostile towards Femmes of color--I am hostile towards that picture LOL. What irks me about her opinion around the intersections of race and Femme, is that for me personally I don't believe that the privileges I access that Femmes of color don't have much to do with my femininity. It has way the hell more to do with my whiteness.

But, I know that lived experience is never simple and we can't really parse out the boxes we fit into in the world. If there is something we are missing around the intersections of race and Femme--I think your opinion would be invaluable.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

Maybe that's why I also, lately, stepped out as a gay person at work (I'm already out at work and it doesn't usually come up but there is a certain subtext in place when I make a comment about gay stuff as opposed to a straight person making it), and laughed at my boss when he said he didn't want to write an article about a queer lit professor because "it's not his thing." He seemed really uncomfortable that we even have a queer lit class at the college.

And I laughed out loud at him, which he didn't like. I said, "I've just never heard a manager be so open with his homophobia." Then I said, "Just don't make comments like that at Cabinet!" and laughed more.

The guy was embarrassed and back-pedaled strenuously to justify his comments. I said look, what if I say I don't want to cover a Jewish history class because "it's not my thing." (I'm not Jewish, but my boss is, and anti-Semitism is the only "ism" that gets to him, IMO.) I was playing devil's advocate, of course. To his credit he didn't play the "boss" card, and we just moved on.

Your whole post is awesome, but this anecdote is fucking fantastic. Seriously perfect way to handle that situation. I'd usually freeze up and say nothing, walk away, bitch about it to others, THEN think of the perfect retort!


Also, I'm loving reading all smart responses from all you fabulous femmes on this topic of invisibility--thank you!

[imperfect_cupcake]

Coming back to date in Vancouver after easy access to community has being unbelievably triggering of old shit. Of the being told I'm a cocksucker, and all other kinds of things by my peers in my own community. The younger ones are better. The ones under 35 seem to have a better grip. But I can't hang out with lezzos my own age without the constant conversation that makes me wish I was back in London. So I've stopped. I've stopped trying because it fucks me up. In the head I mean. I can't cope with the constant trying to defend being feminine.

In London the way I present is consider bog standard. In Vancouver the local dykes think I am OTT feminine. And that is about local perception and not a hierarchy. I don't think I am more femme than my flatmate who dress in jeans and t-shirts and no make up. If anything she's probably more girly than I am!

But I am interested about issues is someone wants to talk a about them, as long as they don't tell me to shut up about mine.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

Coming back to date in Vancouver after easy access to community has being unbelievably triggering of old shit. Of the being told I'm a cocksucker, and all other kinds of things by my peers in my own community. The younger ones are better. The ones under 35 seem to have a better grip. But I can't hang out with lezzos my own age without the constant conversation that makes me wish I was back in London. So I've stopped. I've stopped trying because it fucks me up. In the head I mean. I can't cope with the constant trying to defend being feminine.

In London the way I present is consider bog standard. In Vancouver the local dykes think I am OTT feminine. And that is about local perception and not a hierarchy. I don't think I am more femme than my flatmate who dress in jeans and t-shirts and no make up. If anything she's probably more girly than I am!

But I am interested about issues is someone wants to talk a about them, as long as they don't tell me to shut up about mine.

HB, I bolded the last line. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would never tell you to "shut up." It's always good to hear what you have to say.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

HB, I bolded the last line. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would never tell you to "shut up." It's always good to hear what you have to say.

that was more in reference to reading that as a white femme lesbian, my issues or talking about my issues are annoying. OK, then I'd like to hear what people have to say. I'd prefer if I wasn't told what I deal with is annoying to hear, but I can sort of understand. when in London, where the quality of life is 68 times lower than in vancouver, when some of my friends would bitch about the harper gov't, I'd roll my eyes and think "holy shit, really??? you have no fucking idea... third highest quality of life in the world. REALLY??? I *wish* I had those problems...."

And now I do. And A) I am FUCKING GLAD I am no longer in a place with a grueling tripple recession going on (I wonder when the the gov't is going to admit they are actually in a depression??) and the shocking state of econmic break down... b) now that I am here, I understand what they are talking about with the harper gov't. Is it much better than London? holy shit yes. But you know what, belittling the destruction that this gov't, the papermill and the sulphur plant does to the locality was really fucking remiss of me. I love this place and I don't want it destroyed to the point that London is suffering in order for it to matter or be of equal importance.
I would rather that London's standard of living was brought up to Vancouver's and even better = not vancouver's priviliged life style brought down to London's so they can understand and be just as much in the shit.

So I do my best to educate people here about what life is like in the EU right now. Especially the UK. I do this through local conversations and face book and just daily chats with random people.
Just like I do with outing myself, everyday, all day.
When I am in danger of being gaybashed, yeah I can hide that, but 95% of the time I am in equal danger of being sexually assualted for being feminine. when out with a masculine of centre person, I know that if someone harasses her for being a dyke, I know that in under three minutes I'm going to be a target for being a slut. And vice versa. it's different sides of the same coin. the coin of sexism and fear and hatred of women.

That's my take anyway.

[~ocean]

Ohhh I agree , Honey ,we are in a depression ~ the prices have been sky rocketing in everything ~ even tho here in Massachusetts ~ realestate is strong ~ BUT not enough new employers ~ unemployment has risen ~ college grads are taking their degrees elsewhere ~ that alone tells you ~ I feel bad pushing the ole GO TO COLLEGE theory ~ who wants to see someone 22 + yrs old starting off life w. a $-75,000. on their shoulders w. no job placement ?

[julieisafemme]

I don't experience the femme's post about being that I shut up. I DO experience invisibility as a femme but more in a queer context than in the straight world. So I am a QWF as referred to in the post but am I *the* QWF? What I mean by this is her post a personal attack on ME? There are any number of things I run across on FB or comments on articles that super piss me off. Do I need to take on each comment as a personal attack on me or can I think about what they are saying, check myself and then adjust my attitude. I am sure I could post some rants about crap I have experienced and have people think wow that is about me! Maybe and maybe not. If it is about me ok so then what? I can personalize it or adjust my attitude or say no. I can still have my feelings.

My understanding of gender identities in POC communities is that they are very different than in white communities. What is missing from the femme's post is what her experience is. We are having a separate conversation here with no input from the original source.

Ok I am very clueless a good portion of the time. People have said the picture with the post disturbing. Why? What about it is upsetting? This is an honest and genuine question.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

What is missing from the femme's post is what her experience is. We are having a separate conversation here with no input from the original source.

Hi Julie,

I excerpted a portion of your post that I feel deserves specific attention: In other words, I think your observation carries significant importance in that 1) we don't know the original author, who created the picture which takes on the idea that "Invisibility = Privilege" and, 2) although I cannot speak for FemmeInterrupted, what I took from her post was that she found that picture on Pinterest and found a way to bring that specific issue/topic into the larger discussion, so that 3) the discussion might be revitalized by examining aspects of privilege in connection to Femme Invisibility as experienced by people of color who identify as Femme.

May I suggest that even though we don't know technical aspects about the original author's identity, what we do know is that the picture depicts the opinion of a person who identifies as an Afro-Latina Femme Dyke.

In my opinion, the Afro-Latina Femme Dyke states that her experience is widely different than the experience of an Queer White Femme; in that she says she is "sick of QWFs [failure] to recognise that [their] "invisibility" entitles them to more privilege and forms of safety than femmes of color could ever dream of having access to" (reference: see photo first submitted in Post #205, dated 02-24-2013, in this forum thread).

I believe the original author's statement is a valid experience (even though the original author may or may not be a member in this community).

PS/ I too express my appreciation for femmes in our online community who share their experience in life as it pertains to femme invisibility: the 'highs and lows' that are a part of this particular phenomena we femmes experience in our day-to-day lives.

[imperfect_cupcake]

In my opinion, the Afro-Latina Femme Dyke's states that her experience is widely different than the experience of an Queer White Femme; in that she says she is "sick of QWFs [failure] to recognise that [their] "invisibility" entitles them to more privilege and forms of safety than femmes of color could ever dream of having access to" (reference: see photo first submitted in Post #205, dated 02-24-2013, in this forum thread).

ohhhh. see I didn't read that. but of course, that makes sense.
well, of course I get more safety than femmes of colour... when I'm seen as just a straight white woman, and they are seen as just a straight woman of colour, of course I have more privileges. I'm white and that's the dominant culture where I am. So of course she has to deal with way more bullshit and unsafety than I do.

Of course a femme of colour's experience is compounded with racism. Of course it makes things more unsafe, jesus.

Still doesn't negate the dangerous sexist bullshit I have to deal with as an invisible white femme.

I'm afraid I'm still shrugging that she's annoyed with hearing white femmes talk about their problems. Be annoyed, then. If I shut up about that, then jesus, most of the stuff I deal with here, in canada, and not the Congo? Or in Myanmar??? we should all shut the fuck up. I have a roof over my head, I can pay my bills, I can EAT. I have heating. I'm not being shot at or tortured. wtf is femme invisibility in comparison to that, eh?

I also know that when I could not pay my bills, I had £10 a week to live on for two people for food and transport... my lesbian issues weren't exactly on the top of my list. and I had no time to contemplate those things.

first world problem.

so...

and?

I don't know what else to say about it. My life is fucking good in this town. I don't have to worry about being homeless anymore, I don't have to worry about being completely alone with no family, no friends, no citizenship, no visa, working under the table in sex work and hoping no one rats me out.

Life is pretty bloody good now and I really have no right to bitch about these things that I do. Oh no, I don't have enough money to buy clothes this year. Oh well.
Oh shit, I have only enough money for one zone transport and I have to cycle everywhere else (I am lucky enough to have a bike). Oh well.

Oh no, I can't hang with the dykes in my neighbourhood cause they are all assholes about my presentation. Well, I have my old mates living within walking distance from where I life and they love me. that's more than I had before. so boo fucking hoo.

Still, I do like a good moan now and again. But I am under no misconceptions that life is way WAY harder outside of this little present bubble and I'm utterly grateful for it. And I'm mindful that the people I left behind in their level of poverty? can't leave to go home. they *are* home. That goes through my head about every other day. They don't have what I do. I am incredibly aware of that.

I'm not ranting at you K.

I'm just flapping my text gums. So should I just shut up and not type at all about any of my problems because I know that other people have it way the fuck harder than I do right now? Probably.
I just bought a pair of gold-pink glam stilettos for $8 at a massive shoe sale. Life really isn't that bad for me, even if I don't have a lesbian or queer community right now.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I don't experience the femme's post about being that I shut up. I DO experience invisibility as a femme but more in a queer context than in the straight world. So I am a QWF as referred to in the post but am I *the* QWF? What I mean by this is her post a personal attack on ME? There are any number of things I run across on FB or comments on articles that super piss me off. Do I need to take on each comment as a personal attack on me or can I think about what they are saying, check myself and then adjust my attitude. I am sure I could post some rants about crap I have experienced and have people think wow that is about me! Maybe and maybe not. If it is about me ok so then what? I can personalize it or adjust my attitude or say no. I can still have my feelings.

well fair enough. she might not have ment "if I hear one more..." as not shutting the hell up. She's annoyed and giving voice to how she feels. it's the internet. If no one spoke up it would be a bloody dull place with no info on it, hey?

I'm giving a some text blab to how I feel. And I'm open to being given a word, that's fine too. I'm a blabby type that has an open stream of words that come out of my brain and into text and I process stuff by externalising it. I'm an extrovert. I'm about to have a piece of cheese and get back to study. I'm not twisted into a pretzle. I was annoyed, now that I've emptied my knickers out everywhere, I'm fine.

of course she has every right to say what she thinks and feels about her experience. She also has every right to say "I wish QWFs would all take a cumulative leap off a bridge" if she wants. Up to her. but then I'm used to hearing people tell me "for the love of god Babs, shut up before I shove my fist up your ass!" and I am usually pretty ok with that too

[pinkgeek]

Aloha! (Yeah we actually start business correspondance with Aloha! here.)

What many people don't realize about Hawaii is that being white is not an advantage, it is in many cases a disadvantage. What what? Yeah hard to believe, but Hawaii is the reverse of the rest of the country. POC rule the land here and honestly living here has been one of the most amazing and humbling experiences of my life. The reversal of privilege borders on unexplainable and I'm usually not bereft of an explanation.

Interesting unknown fact #2 is that outside of Honolulu which is largely a tourist trap being queer is unremarkable. QFs (queer femmes) are not invisible or passing; it's much more interesting and mostly awesome. Consider a life 99% without homophobia, welcome to my life on TBI (The Big Island). Is it gay mecca here? No, it's going to work, paying bills, and no one making any distinction between queerness and straightness. It's "hey let's go to the beach" at random.

While outright homophobia is rare as far as I have experienced bumbling strait folks are fairly common. They mess up pronouns, the importance of marriage equality and stumble over the right word for a committed relationship, but they do so in an effort (usually) to get it right. It is unfathomable to most people here that anything LGBT wouldn't be equal. I'm amused and often softened by the "well that's just dumb!" and "that kind of crap still happens?" that comes tumbling out of their mouths when inequality is discussed.

That said transfolk and queens here in particular MtF's have an INCREDIBLY difficult time and largely remain on the down-low in an insular community. Nothing is perfect. Our office in particular is working as hard as we can to break down that stigma and as the younger generation grows up the old ways of transphobia are becoming a thing of the past.

So how is this relevant? Living in a place where what I am and how I identify is largely a "not thing" has been exceptionally freeing. I am no longer annoyed by my invisibility elsewhere in the country/world. This beautiful place has given me an incredible, powerful and unique to me confidence about moving through the world.

PS - No one here is unaware that Hawaii should be it's own nation, was stolen in a reprehensible way etc. etc. While MyLadyMother won't ever choose to become an American she would become a Hawaiian citizen if she could. Folks who move here love it or hate it and everyone has a really cool story about how they got here.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Pink geek, that is how I felt in London.
I was accepted, seen, and to be totally honest, my I'd of femme suddenly wasn't all that important anymore. I didn't feel like it was needed. It was just a side descriptor of little importance, like blonde.
Being accepted into a local community with no hostility or defense or accusations, I'd get openly checked out by dykes on the escalators in the tube... No one gave a shit if I was straight or gay, they would still talk to me in a gay pub and flirt with me.
It felt like a 10 pound bag of wet cement had been lifted off me. I had local lezzo friends for the first time in my life. I suddenly "got" what it was like to have a community, a real one, in person. I no longer called people "my femme friends" because it no longer mattered to distinguish them.

There was no hierarchy of femme, because femme wasn't really discussed. You just happened to be one. And in person, all these discussions happen with close friends.

I love my old mates here, they are like my family. But yeah, I really do miss the unconcerned acceptance into lezzo land and that dykes of all kinds were unafraid to just flirt with anyone they wished and didn't give a toss if they wound up being straight.

However, white imperialist nation? Yeah. White still very much the dominant culture!!! Unless you are an immigrant white. Then, you get treated like shit. And don't ever, ever forget you are a foreigner. But white foreigners get it easier than poc foreigners.

Same old chestnut.

[pinkgeek]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

unconcerned acceptance

Best description of "the spirit of aloha" I've ever heard, even though that's not what you were referencing.

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by Chancie

It's really bothering me that you used the expression 'freaking out'.

It may be that it's personal narrative style on your part, but

It's very dismissive.

It seems like an awkward choice when communicating your feelings and ideas about femme invisibility.

I'm sorry you feel my word choice is dismissive. That happens to be the way that I talk, and I would also call myself out on "having a freak out" if I said something along the lines of "I'm sick to death of this group of people who are not me that don't realize this thing they find oppressive isn't half as bad as what I go through". I thought the entire photo was dismissive of an entire group of people, and it pissed me off so I said what I had to say.

Apparently I upset both you and Snow, and for that I am sorry.



This just reinforces to me why I never post or participate in BFP forums anymore. No matter what I say, or how carefully I word it, there are always people who will read insult in it. I hope that the conversation can continue, I think it's a valuable one, I'm just tired of having to defend myself constantly in this place where I thought I would feel safe.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Tis the thing about north american boards. One is talking to a public of a type of verbal interaction where you do have to be careful about insult. Which is why I dont post much anymore. My tone is too rough and my sense of humour too pisstaking and ironic/sarcastic. I know that what I've written above can be taken verify offensively. Oh well, I know what I mean, I think its OK with my friends who can challenge me back on the same level and then we can laugh, tease and discuss - which is my preffered style of debate. But people don't know me, so I try to keep my yap shut more often.
My face book is easier to have discussions as everyone k hows who I am and what I'm like.
It is so.etching of a skill to be mindful that no one knows me from a hole in the ground and my tone is likely make conveyed.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by femmeInterrupted

Just came across this image on Pinterest. Thought of this thread.

When I first read this when the OP posted I was like hmm.. I really could not share what I thought of it, I don't think anyone here or who is posting here would have read it and said or thought:

"I hear ya Snow, I get it"

I feel this way because it's clearly visible that WOC do not hang out on BFP, and if they do well we eventually leave. We leave because when we do express things in a non white washed way then it upsets people. So I now leave those convos for the right space and the right people.

I am unsure what the intent of the person who posted this image on Pinterest had, the OP did not have anything other than a collage, that I am assuming this WOC made and then posted it on her Pinterest or that she found it somewhere on Pinterest, shared it because it resonated with her.


I don't read it and see her as *freaking out* or not stating something that is fact. I do read it and see her words aren't soft, they aren't academic they are just her words. Maybe I am unsure because like I stated I don't know her intent other than she seems frustrated and maybe this was a way to express it.

All that is just a guess.

I do agree though, a white femme, will be more likely blend in than a Queer Femme of Color. That's been my experience. I know this and can say this with actual truth because as a light skinned Femme of Color the priveledges that sometimes get passed on to me are not the same ones my sisters who's cocoa skin are given. It's pretty fucked up but it happens....
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

I'm sorry you feel my word choice is dismissive. That happens to be the way that I talk, and I would also call myself out on "having a freak out" if I said something along the lines of "I'm sick to death of this group of people who are not me that don't realize this thing they find oppressive isn't half as bad as what I go through". I thought the entire photo was dismissive of an entire group of people, and it pissed me off so I said what I had to say.

Apparently I upset both you and Snow, and for that I am sorry.



This just reinforces to me why I never post or participate in BFP forums anymore. No matter what I say, or how carefully I word it, there are always people who will read insult in it. I hope that the conversation can continue, I think it's a valuable one, I'm just tired of having to defend myself constantly in this place where I thought I would feel safe.

It's funny (not in a ha ha way but in the ironic way) that we both have this feeling of unsafety when posting. I know for me it comes from how I deliver things, they are never soft and pretty enough.

*I* did not make this space unsafe for you Andy, I spoke about the wording because as a WOC my experience is that when you do say something that white folk do not like to hear then we are painted as

LOUD

ANGRY

FLIPPING OUT

FREAKING OUT

SCREAMING

CONFRONTATIONAL

AGGRESSIVE


That's where I was coming from when I posted, it wasn't meant to imply anything ugly or cruel about Scandal Andy. I, personally at the time when I read it I was like..

"here we go"

Why?

Because it happens, it's happened and it will always happen that when a WOC uses art, media, music, or anything to express herself that unless it's prettied up then we are being *angry*


I don't get that from the collage, then again I get it somewhat....

[julieisafemme]

I asked this before and Katzchen answered but did not answer the question. What specifically is disturbing about this picture? I don't find it disturbing. It looks like some very groovy club people who live and circulate in a world that I am not cool or young enough to inhabit. One woman is a woman of color and the other is white. At least that is what it looks like to me. They seem to have very flat chests. That is about it. Am I a nutball? I know that often times I do not get things. I'm ok with that. That is why I ask. So what are others seeing and interpreting in the picture?

Also the caption strikes me. "Own it and let's work from there". That sounds to me like an invitation to dialogue and not a shut up. It might not be a easy conversation but it does feel to me that there is a genuine desire to talk about it.

[tantalizingfemme]

I live in the straight world. That is the only world that sees me. I have actually been more readily accepted in the straight world as a queer femme than I am in the gay/queer world.

I was actually part of a very large gay women's group in Delaware from it's inception, helped found it, and yet later found out that everyone all that time, 6 years, thought I just was a confused straight woman looking for friends. (They didn't "realize" I was queer until I started dating Dapper) Smh....

ETA: I am not unhappy, I love all of my friends. I do have 2 femme friends who I wish lived closer but I do have them for support.

AETA: I am a white femme and recognize my invisibility does offer me security.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Thanks Snowy. I know it gets really old and boring. But I appreciate the time to explain any of that to my spun the fuck out mind.