Atheist support, discussion, and information sharing thread

[atomiczombie]

Even though I am not an atheist, I have been on the receiving end of people saying I am going to hell, that I am a heathen, I must repent, accept Jesus as my personal savior, etc. I once had a Christian pro football player tell me the reason I was gay (I ID'd as a femme-lovin' butch at the time) was because of childhood trauma and that Jesus could heal that for me. Atheists aren't the only ones having to deal with this bullshit. I do empathize with you all, I sure do.

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Even though I am not an atheist, I have been on the receiving end of people saying I am going to hell, that I am a heathen, I must repent, accept Jesus as my personal savior, etc. I once had a Christian pro football player tell me the reason I was gay (I ID'd as a femme-lovin' butch at the time) was because of childhood trauma and that Jesus could heal that for me. Atheists aren't the only ones having to deal with this bullshit. I do empathize with you all, I sure do.

thank you for this
I think many are on the receiving end of this type of thing.
I think (meaning my opinion) that when some people (A) are confronted (faced with) with someone(B) who truly does not believe what they believe and has made those belief choices with thought and care. Then that can cause instability/doubt/confusion in person A and whether they realize it or not person A needs to make person B believe or at least understand what they believe in order to shore up their (A) own belief systems. Did any of that make sense?
Or (i think) If I believe what I believe is absolute truth
when someone believes differently
that means one of us has to be wrong (the idea that there can only be one absolute truth)
so I must convince you that you are wrong (sometimes at any cost)
or I must face the fact that I might be wrong
and I having invested much life and energy into believing what I believe that is not an option most will chose
(nothing is as fun as realizing one has been wrong about something)

[Thinker]

Good evening, folks...

We're getting reported posts from this thread, and I would like to encourage everyone to continue having constructive dialogue without being judgmental or critical.

Have the hard conversations, but please do so respectfully.

Thank you.

Thinker (moderator)

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by amiyesiam

thank you for this
I think many are on the receiving end of this type of thing.
I think (meaning my opinion) that when some people (A) are confronted (faced with) with someone(B) who truly does not believe what they believe and has made those belief choices with thought and care. Then that can cause instability/doubt/confusion in person A and whether they realize it or not person A needs to make person B believe or at least understand what they believe in order to shore up their (A) own belief systems. Did any of that make sense?
Or (i think) If I believe what I believe is absolute truth
when someone believes differently
that means one of us has to be wrong (the idea that there can only be one absolute truth)
so I must convince you that you are wrong (sometimes at any cost)
or I must face the fact that I might be wrong
and I having invested much life and energy into believing what I believe that is not an option most will chose
(nothing is as fun as realizing one has been wrong about something)

I think you are absolutely right that some people are insecure in their faith, particularly when it has an arguable basis. I feel sad for people who believe in a god who is wrathful and judgmental, because they condemn themselves to living with the fear of wrath and judgment. They naturally turn it on others. I think, how unhappy they must be.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I think you are absolutely right that some people are insecure in their faith, particularly when it has an arguable basis. I feel sad for people who believe in a god who is wrathful and judgmental, because they condemn themselves to living with the fear of wrath and judgment. They naturally turn it on others. I think, how unhappy they must be.

I always think (who are you trying to convince?) But then I'm very secure in my being.

[BBinNYC]

I'm here as a person who does not identify as an atheist to respect and support those that do. I grew up in an interfaith family (mother Jewish, father Catholic) and even though I was raised Jewish, I was taught over and over to respect other peoples' beliefs.

I know among progressive Jews there is a strong tradition of questioning everything, including the existence of God. I was so glad that when Jennifer agreed to come with me to the final part of the Yom Kippur service, our rabbi, who is fabulous, acknowledged that there were people in the congregation who do not believe in a god, and said that they are fully accepted. I was so glad that Jennifer could be there to hear that and not feel like she was being coerced in some way.

I think spiritual beliefs are less important than what each person contributes by way of their actions. There are atheists who work hard everyday to make the world a better place and I am grateful to them. I can't imagine that the "universe" would disapprove.

BBinNYC

[Jar]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

You hit the nail on the head there Jar, we do have different beliefs, the term non believer annoys the hell out of me because frankly it's insulting and it insinuates that somehow atheists or agnostics or any one else other than those who believe in some Diety have no belief system.

You're right Lady Snow and even though I have different beliefs I didn't respect the rights of others to have thiers. I apologize for the post because it was certainly disrespectful.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Jar

You're right Lady Snow and even though I have different beliefs I didn't respect the rights of others to have thiers. I apologize for the post because it was certainly disrespectful.

THANK YOU for taking the time to come back in here and apologizing! It's deeply appreciated I hope you have a great Holiday!

[Jar]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

THANK YOU for taking the time to come back in here and apologizing! It's deeply appreciated I hope you have a great Holiday!

Well sometimes I fire off before my brain kicks in but I'll own it. Thanks Lady Snow

[nycfem]

Hey, Jar,

I think within our culture there are a lot of assumptions about atheists, that we are unfeeling, not in tune with the universe, don't believe in anything, etc. Actually though, there are as many types of atheists as there are religious people. I feel hurt when someone assumes I am not in tune with the universe because being in tune with the universe is so important to me. It may seem like a contradiction but I have a book called "The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality," which helps to reinforce my gut feeling that I don't have to believe in God to find all kinds of deep meaning in relationships, nature, and the universe. I even pray for others when they want it because I conceive of it as a meditation and direction of energy towards those I care about and love. I also relate it to quantum physics. Some atheists don't feel that way at all, but I just want to put out there what a struggle it can be to be automatically written off as unfeeling or lacking depth and meaning when coming out as an atheist. Belief in God, imo, is something we have or don't have. Sometimes I think it would be much easier in life if I did have it, but I don't and yet I still want to be acknowledged as someone who cares and has depth and believes and questions and is a good person. Thanks for your participation in the thread. One aspect of this thread I hadn't thought of but which Wolfy pointed out is its potential to provide some understanding of atheism for those who do believe in God but want to understand more about those of us that believe differently. I have pretended to believe in God to fit in at times in my life, but I don't want to do that because it's not authentic. I think acceptance from those who are different from us as atheists can only help us not to hide our authentic selves. I didn't choose to not believe in God, and have tried very hard to at different times in my life, but I don't, and I want to love myself as I am, because that is what feeds my soul.

Originally Posted by Jar

You're right Lady Snow and even though I have different beliefs I didn't respect the rights of others to have thiers. I apologize for the post because it was certainly disrespectful.

[Jar]

Originally Posted by nycfembbw

Hey, Jar,
One aspect of this thread I hadn't thought of but which Wolfy pointed out is its potential to provide some understanding of atheism for those who do believe in God but want to understand more about those of us that believe differently. ...I didn't choose to not believe in God, ... and I want to love myself as I am, because that is what feeds my soul.

I think I jump so fast to conclusions because I don't understand it and have never really had a conversation with anyone about it. I'll read the thread with more of an open mind and maybe I will understand it better. I never claim to know it all

[*Anya*]

I won't elaborate on what others have so eloquently stated already. I will state however, that most atheists-myself included-do tend to stay in the closet for fear of being attacked by others that are made uncomfortable and unable to accept my own personal value system. I have stated before that I accept you as you are, I do not mock you, belittle or attack you for your own personal choices/beliefs (no jumping on me for using the word belief either-no good word to describe it). What I like about the planet is the wide range of diverging viewpoints. If I feel a pang of discomfort inside myself reading some else's post, I take a step back & try to understand for me and me alone, why it bothered me. I learned a long time ago I could be reactionary if I allowed myself to be. I would much rather be thoughtful & gain wisdom from the viewpoints of others. In case you
Also may think I was just never "shown the way"; I was raised Lutheran, Church every Sunday, confirmed, vacation bible school etc. My parents piously did the same-plus the choir. Meanwhile, they were abusive to me. I prayed plenty as a child though my prayers were never answered. I learned instead to count on myself. Just the same way it would be easier to pretend I am straight & be accepted by straight society; it would be easier for me to pretend I believed there was such a being or spirit such as God. I am going to go strap myself in my body/self-esteem armor now but hope I don't need it to
protect against attacks from planet readers.

[MsDemeanor]

Why am I not surprised that the first thing that happens is folks jump in and bash? High on my list of things that I don't like about religion is the hatred and intolerance that it breeds - from tribes slaughtering each other by the tens of thousands to individuals jumping in to this thread to bash.

I don't get religion, I don't get spirituality, I don't get the whole god thing. As an outside observer, the rituals appear to run the full spectrum, from sweet - like some of the midnight masses my ex used to drag me to - to silly to absurd to deadly - like the oppressions, mutilations, and murders of women throughout the world. I don't understand someone offering to pray for me or light a candle for me or whatever when something bad happens to me. How does this help me? It might make the other person feel better about themselves, but it's a useless gesture and I'd prefer that folks put their time to better use.

'Oh god' does spring from my lips during orgasm, I do pray to the parking goddess when visiting San Francisco, and I seasonally worship at the alters of Foxborough and Fenway. That's all really about great sex, close parking spaces, and winning seasons, not religion or spirituality or whatever y'all want to call it.

[tapu]

I was thinking last night about the distinction between a "soft atheist" and a "hard atheist." Hmm, I really should have looked it up before I came in here today, but I want to think about the possible distinctions that came to me already so here goes:

Say a soft atheist is committed to there being no deity in the sense of a superior being, but allows for the possibility that there might be one. Sort of an atheist without the arrogance. >;-) I think, though, that it may be less simplistic than this. Maybe a soft atheist believes that there IS an organizing principle in the world, just not a cognizant (thinking) being. I always think of this kind of atheist when someone says they are atheist but "believe there is more out there." I'm not sure if they mean an afterlife, or an organizing principle or being, or both.

I think I may be a hard atheist, but again there are fine distinctions. I don't think there is "more out there." I believe that this life is it. And I live with the idea that the likeliest scenario is that the generation of my great-grandchildren may not even know my name. If you think about it, that is generally true. How many here can rattle off the names of their great grandparents. How about "maiden" names?

Now, thinking about my own transience like that can depress me more than a Sartre short story, but it is what I believe. But I grow more comfortable with what I think is the reality because I also believe that it's better to address that reality--better in the sense of a life fully lived--than to assuage that reality with belief systems constructed to deny it.

The hardest of hard atheists believe that everything is random. No organizing principle, even. I am pretty close to that, but to some degree it depends on how "organizing principle" is defined. For me, a scientific (as opposed to mystical) principle is the only possibility. Then, I am left to ponder how much is heredity and how much environment. I'm reading Pinker's "The Blank State" right now for help in how to think about that.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Jar

You're right Lady Snow and even though I have different beliefs I didn't respect the rights of others to have thiers. I apologize for the post because it was certainly disrespectful.

I know everyone is trying to be nicey in here now, but there were a couple of other wee bombs dropped that I would like to address.

The original comment really was disrespectful, as was the one where Jar intentionally referred to tapu, as "tofu."

Now, I can be as big a prick as there is, but I like to at least stick to the facts of argument, and not insert disrespectful little jabs at member's names. Maybe you were butt hurt that tapu didn't know you from a million years on the internet, but still, that was shitty.

As far as atheists being "out of tune with the universe," that is clearly only your opinion, and holds no greater value than merely that. You also committed a fallacy, or incorrect leap of logic when you made the statement, "I just mean that anyone that doesn't think there's more is out of tune."

Do you know the definition of "atheist?" Because it is not an umbrella term for those who do not believe "there's more." It means we do not believe in the existence of a deity. That is all. "More" is sort of a broad term, wouldn't you say?

I hope that helps you feel more prepared to, "read the thread with more of an open mind and maybe ... understand it better." I don't think you need to worry that anyone here though you might "know it all," but thanks for clarifying.

[Jar]

Yes I did refer to Tapu as tofu because she called me a troll. It was an immature response to an immature statement. I didn't see any response from you about the troll comment though.

And no, I was not "butt hurt" over the fact that she didn't know me. I just pointed out that there are a lot of people here that have known me and they know I'm not a "troll".

I admitted that my comment was disrespectful and that I don't know a lot about what atheists believe. I was also sincere in my comments about wanting to understand it.

Anything else cuz I'm the last one that will play nice without meaning it

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Jar

Yes I did refer to Tapu as tofu because she called me a troll. It was an immature response to an immature statement. I didn't see any response from you about the troll comment though.

And no, I was not "butt hurt" over the fact that she didn't know me. I just pointed out that there are a lot of people here that have known me and they know I'm not a "troll".

I admitted that my comment was disrespectful and that I don't know a lot about what atheists believe. I was also sincere in my comments about wanting to understand it.

Anything else cuz I'm the last one that will play nice without meaning it

We may be defining troll differently. To me, a troll is someone who comes onto a thread and makes a statement that they couldn't fail to know will rile the participants and then they respond to the feedback that could only be expected with continued incendiary statements about their opinions with absolutely nothing objective to back it up.

Nowhere in my troll definition does it say that a troll is someone who hasn't been on the board for very long. If that were the definition, any newbie who said something others didn't like could be called a troll.

And, Jar, in the world of not playing nice, you're out of your league.

[Jar]

Originally Posted by tapu

We may be defining troll differently. To me, a troll is someone who comes onto a thread and makes a statement that they couldn't fail to know will rile the participants and then they respond to the feedback that could only be expected with continued incendiary statements about their opinions with absolutely nothing objective to back it up.

Nowhere in my troll definition does it say that a troll is someone who hasn't been on the board for very long. If that were the definition, any newbie who said something others didn't like could be called a troll.

And, Jar, in the world of not playing nice, you're out of your league.

Well I had no idea what your definition of "troll" is. I only knew it was a derogatory term.

As for your last threat, I'm not out of my league but you need to grow up. Accept apologies, accept that people mouth off before they think but own thier own ignorance on some subjects ..this being mine.

This thread is derailed and I've apologized. Get on with the subject!

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Jar

I think I jump so fast to conclusions because I don't understand it and have never really had a conversation with anyone about it. I'll read the thread with more of an open mind and maybe I will understand it better. I never claim to know it all

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I know everyone is trying to be nicey in here now, but there were a couple of other wee bombs dropped that I would like to address.

The original comment really was disrespectful, as was the one where Jar intentionally referred to tapu, as "tofu."

Now, I can be as big a prick as there is, but I like to at least stick to the facts of argument, and not insert disrespectful little jabs at member's names. Maybe you were butt hurt that tapu didn't know you from a million years on the internet, but still, that was shitty.

As far as atheists being "out of tune with the universe," that is clearly only your opinion, and holds no greater value than merely that. You also committed a fallacy, or incorrect leap of logic when you made the statement, "I just mean that anyone that doesn't think there's more is out of tune."

Do you know the definition of "atheist?" Because it is not an umbrella term for those who do not believe "there's more." It means we do not believe in the existence of a deity. That is all. "More" is sort of a broad term, wouldn't you say?

I hope that helps you feel more prepared to, "read the thread with more of an open mind and maybe ... understand it better." I don't think you need to worry that anyone here though you might "know it all," but thanks for clarifying.

Originally Posted by Jar

Yes I did refer to Tapu as tofu because she called me a troll. It was an immature response to an immature statement. I didn't see any response from you about the troll comment though.

And no, I was not "butt hurt" over the fact that she didn't know me. I just pointed out that there are a lot of people here that have known me and they know I'm not a "troll".

I admitted that my comment was disrespectful and that I don't know a lot about what atheists believe. I was also sincere in my comments about wanting to understand it.

Anything else cuz I'm the last one that will play nice without meaning it

Originally Posted by tapu

We may be defining troll differently. To me, a troll is someone who comes onto a thread and makes a statement that they couldn't fail to know will rile the participants and then they respond to the feedback that could only be expected with continued incendiary statements about their opinions with absolutely nothing objective to back it up.

Nowhere in my troll definition does it say that a troll is someone who hasn't been on the board for very long. If that were the definition, any newbie who said something others didn't like could be called a troll.

And, Jar, in the world of not playing nice, you're out of your league.

Originally Posted by Jar

Well I had no idea what your definition of "troll" is. I only knew it was a derogatory term.

As for your last threat, I'm not out of my league but you need to grow up. Accept apologies, accept that people mouth off before they think but own thier own ignorance on some subjects.this being mine.

This thread is derailed and I've apologized. Get on with the subject!

Jar apologized and that should have been enough.

The rest of the needling and nit-picking can stop now so the discussion about atheism can continue.

Thinker (moderator)

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Jar

Yes I did refer to Tapu as tofu because she called me a troll. It was an immature response to an immature statement. I didn't see any response from you about the troll comment though.

Originally Posted by tapu

We may be defining troll differently. To me, a troll is someone who comes onto a thread and makes a statement that they couldn't fail to know will rile the participants and then they respond to the feedback that could only be expected with continued incendiary statements about their opinions with absolutely nothing objective to back it up.

And, Jar, in the world of not playing nice, you're out of your league.

This was the definition, commonly understood by denizens of websites such as this. Therefore, I did not feel it warranted address. I do appreciate that you are indeed sincere in your desire to become more informed, and thank you for saying so.

I will, however, address tapu's statement above, which is uncalled for, arrogant and has zero relevance to the thread topic. It's comments like that which will afford you the opportunity to find out, and quickly, exactly the ways in which you are out of your league.


ETA - Sorry Thinker, we were posting at the same time. I wanted to take the time to thank Jar for his efforts.