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Old 03-07-2019, 07:32 AM   #3761
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...Yikes, which brings up the interesting dilemma, does one listen to Jackson's songs (i.e. Thriller, which we all know), or do we boycott?
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I'm glad you see the difference between child molestation and being gay, but I'm not sure that what Rembrandt did (art) and what Jackson did (pop) are the same thing. While I love art that expresses love (not lust), I (like many others) liked Jackson's music, but it's not the same thing. And if the Sistine Chapel fell into ruin, I wouldn't care. Actually, I might breathe a sigh of relief, considering all the damage that the Catholic Church has perpetrated on women throughout thousands of years. Art is something which moves the heart, and pop music is something which moves the loins. Such art never causes any damage, and never incites stupidity.

Btw, bringing up Britten is the classic straw-man fallacious argument, which seeks to confuse the issue by bringing up an idea that has nothing to do with child molestation and pedophilia. Clever but not intelligent.

One of the victims in that documentary said that Jackson said: "This is the way we show love."

I think that one of the consequences of the dark cancer that is spreading worldwide is that the boundaries between right and wrong are being eroded by people who are evil, to the extent that many people no longer understand the difference. This I agree with wholeheartedly and it's gotten significantly worse the past few years. I have a theory, as many do, but it's not really "breaking news".


The inheritors of Jackson's fortune are putting up a big backlash, because every time someone does the right thing and decides not to click on one of Jackson's songs (say on Spotify), they risk losing millions.

...
The Catholic Church has done damage to men as well. The secrecy and shame and denials have torn their victims of all genders and orientations apart. We should be careful when we say "never" as in the portion of your post that I underlined.

Art makes people passionate. You are passionate right now with your opinion. Passion makes people do stupid things, which can be damaging so I have to disagree with you there. Here's a link to the 10 most criminal artists that I found. There's murder, seduction, adultery and arson in this list. By your stance, we should boycott the works of all of these artists as well, no?

Some people can separate the artist from the art and the maker from the product. Some cannot. I don't think someone is doing something wrong if they listen to whatever music they choose to, despite what the artist has or has not done. I believe there might be better options to expose yourself to, but it's still a free country.

MJ is not the first nor the last musical artist/icon that has done questionable and/or illegal and/or unethical things. R Kelly is currently dealing with repeated issues about this. To be transparent, I don't like R Kelly or his music (outside of "I Think I Can Fly") but it's the same thing. Demonize the person, not their work. So many people throughout the decades have found solace and grace in the work of people that turned out to be pretty darn shitty. That doesn't take away from the value of the work. Just the person. And it, in no way, reflects upon listeners of that music or the viewers of that art.
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Old 03-07-2019, 09:11 AM   #3762
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The Catholic Church has done damage to men as well. The secrecy and shame and denials have torn their victims of all genders and orientations apart. We should be careful when we say "never" as in the portion of your post that I underlined.

Art makes people passionate. You are passionate right now with your opinion. Passion makes people do stupid things, which can be damaging so I have to disagree with you there. Here's a link to the 10 most criminal artists that I found. There's murder, seduction, adultery and arson in this list. By your stance, we should boycott the works of all of these artists as well, no?

Some people can separate the artist from the art and the maker from the product. Some cannot. I don't think someone is doing something wrong if they listen to whatever music they choose to, despite what the artist has or has not done. I believe there might be better options to expose yourself to, but it's still a free country.

MJ is not the first nor the last musical artist/icon that has done questionable and/or illegal and/or unethical things. R Kelly is currently dealing with repeated issues about this. To be transparent, I don't like R Kelly or his music (outside of "I Think I Can Fly") but it's the same thing. Demonize the person, not their work. So many people throughout the decades have found solace and grace in the work of people that turned out to be pretty darn shitty. That doesn't take away from the value of the work. Just the person. And it, in no way, reflects upon listeners of that music or the viewers of that art.
The word passion literally means love of one thing, compassion meaning love of all. I am not at all certain that the 10 "artists" you mentioned had love in their heart - au contraire, having seen the biopic on Picasso, I am sure he didn't know what "love" was. To be transparent myself, I am not a fan of any of the artists you mentioned, and I have been to the Louvre, and saw Géricault's "Raft of Medusa" [no offense to Medusa of this site - ]; it takes up the whole wall, not crazy about that one either - even if I could own it, I wouldn't want it... can you imagine having to look at that one every day...? The thing is I wouldn't want to shake hands with any of these people, nor would I encourage any of them. I find it interesting and weird that people value their works of "art". Procurement of such "art" has become nothing less than big business.

The thing is I am able to see love in art; and when there is no love, I feel nothing, same thing with music.

Insofar as finding "solace or grace" in works of art, I know someone here who has stared incessantly at a picture of the Virgin Mary (a very nice work of "art" btw), and then built his life around that, creating his own church, with himself as high priest, he even bought religious vestments and walks around in them (smh) - having done Christian "contemplation" incorrectly termed meditation. There are so many examples of people finding so-called "solace or grace" in detrimental habits, that I doubt there is any grace in what they do. To me, it's just another delusion - in other words, playing with something that isn't real. Of course, when a person chooses to follow and believe in whatever delusion they like, they must live with the consequences.

All I understand is that the brain can play tricks with itself and lie to itself. So, far be it from me to tell another how to live, or to tell another whether or not to boycott MJ or R Kelly (I saw his interview with Gayle King btw!!!), etc.

R Kelly's display was incredible, right? Having been accused of trying to control/dominate and influence the lives of so many of his young victims, nothing could seem to stop him from trying to control/dominate and influence his audience's view... geez!

Therefore, I cannot tell another to "boycott" MJ or R Kelly or whoever, I can only speak for myself.

When you say, Demonize the person, not their work, I can only say that whatever a person puts out in the universe is but a reflection of what is going on inside of them, and that is why this planet is in such a mess.

I only brought up this subject because I think it is important to think about the subject.
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Old 03-07-2019, 09:50 AM   #3763
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Cool Addendum

Just to clarify, the entire interview that Gayle King had with R Kelly as well as two of the young women who live with him, will be shown later this week. CBS has been airing parts of that interview this week.
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Old 03-07-2019, 11:36 AM   #3764
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I only brought up this subject because I think it is important to think about the subject.
And now that we have thought about it, I will bow out.
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Old 03-07-2019, 12:32 PM   #3765
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I'm UMC. Born and bred. So done. Great allies in the UMC, but still done. I haven't been going, but still it feels bad. If I go back to church, it'll be UCC. I wonder how Loqui is feeling. Hy works for them.

BTW, they might be able to rule the penalties for performing same sex marriages etc unconstitutional, but still . . . done. Kinda mind-blowing not to be UMC anymore. I don't know. I so feel for LGBTQ folks and allies who are leaving their beloved churches that they attend every week. Fucking heartbreaking.
Hola tina martina,

Im doing fine...and Im feeling well, all things considered...

Anyway, I just wanted to share this video (especially with you and with Georgia Ma'am) ... not to debate or "dialogue" about it in here, but because I thought you might be interested in its content (also, I appear there ... look for me !! LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g--PlKIr3OY

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Old 03-07-2019, 02:55 PM   #3766
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Anyway, I just wanted to share this video (especially with you and with Georgia Ma'am) ... not to debate or "dialogue" about it in here, but because I thought you might be interested in its content (also, I appear there ... look for me !! LOL
Loqui,

Bishop Grant Hagiya is a great voice for moderation, isn't he? Although not giving in to cynicism is a tall order! (for me, at least.) It was interesting to hear his POV as an attendee at the conference. I didn't realize quite how much some Conservatives want the Progressives and Moderates completely gone from the church before I heard this. It's heartening to hear that some Moderates and Progressives are willing to wait and see what happens over the next few months before leaving en masse. At least, I hope many will.

Thanks so much for posting this useful video.
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Old 03-07-2019, 09:01 PM   #3767
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The word passion literally means love of one thing, compassion meaning love of all. I am not at all certain that the 10 "artists" you mentioned had love in their heart - au contraire, having seen the biopic on Picasso, I am sure he didn't know what "love" was. To be transparent myself, I am not a fan of any of the artists you mentioned, and I have been to the Louvre, and saw Géricault's "Raft of Medusa" [no offense to Medusa of this site - ]; it takes up the whole wall, not crazy about that one either - even if I could own it, I wouldn't want it... can you imagine having to look at that one every day...? The thing is I wouldn't want to shake hands with any of these people, nor would I encourage any of them. I find it interesting and weird that people value their works of "art". Procurement of such "art" has become nothing less than big business.

The thing is I am able to see love in art; and when there is no love, I feel nothing, same thing with music.

Insofar as finding "solace or grace" in works of art, I know someone here who has stared incessantly at a picture of the Virgin Mary (a very nice work of "art" btw), and then built his life around that, creating his own church, with himself as high priest, he even bought religious vestments and walks around in them (smh) - having done Christian "contemplation" incorrectly termed meditation. There are so many examples of people finding so-called "solace or grace" in detrimental habits, that I doubt there is any grace in what they do. To me, it's just another delusion - in other words, playing with something that isn't real. Of course, when a person chooses to follow and believe in whatever delusion they like, they must live with the consequences.

All I understand is that the brain can play tricks with itself and lie to itself. So, far be it from me to tell another how to live, or to tell another whether or not to boycott MJ or R Kelly (I saw his interview with Gayle King btw!!!), etc.

R Kelly's display was incredible, right? Having been accused of trying to control/dominate and influence the lives of so many of his young victims, nothing could seem to stop him from trying to control/dominate and influence his audience's view... geez!

Therefore, I cannot tell another to "boycott" MJ or R Kelly or whoever, I can only speak for myself.

When you say, Demonize the person, not their work, I can only say that whatever a person puts out in the universe is but a reflection of what is going on inside of them, and that is why this planet is in such a mess.

I only brought up this subject because I think it is important to think about the subject.
Actually, that's not the definition of 'passion'. Here's the link, since it's a bit long but none of the versions list the meaning as 'love of one thing'. But I see you have some strong views on this matter and that's great. To each their own, right?

I wouldn't even venture a guess as to what someone else has in their heart and soul, but I do know what I personally get out of certain artists' work, be it musical or art or spoken word or whatever. Art takes many forms and is absolutely subjective. From the sound of it, you and I have very different opinions in relation to specific artists but similar thoughts on R. Kelly. lol

I agree that 'art' as a classification has become not only big business but is used as a status symbol and that's sad to me. I think it should be more freely available to all, especially younger generations that are still building their character and finding their own passions.

Thanks so much for the dialogue!



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Old 03-07-2019, 10:20 PM   #3768
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While R.Kelly, MJ, and say, Woody Allen are recent examples, this debate of art vs. artist's character is as old as, well, art.

For example, D.W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation. Made in 1915, it reflected the attitudes of its time and the 1860's, when it was set. Griffith's father was a colonel in the Confederate Army, and young David must have heard stories. I have no knowledge if D.W. himself was a racist, but do we condemn this movie or recognize it as an art form and jump in movie development?

Or Wagner, of the operas? He was a vicious anti-Semite. Should we never thrill to his "Ride of the Valkyries" again? It's one of my favorites-does that make me awful?

I believe in letting adults use their common sense in what they want to read, hear, watch, etc., and don't want some outside group telling me what I cannot show my children (who have seen BOAN and heard Wagner performed). They realize both Griffith and Wagner were products of their time and place.

If we as a people go down the road of banning things left and right because of the artist's actions, or-and it's not a huge jump to monuments and statues-because the subject didn't have the "right" opinions based on 2019 standards, then we are on a perilous road indeed where we are told what to think and what is "right". Dissension will be punished. There are a few societies, none of which are/were pleasant to live in, in which that was tried.
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Old 03-08-2019, 11:30 AM   #3769
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Paul Manafort sentenced to 47 months .......


You try committing bank fraud & tax fraud and see what you'll get!

They'd probable lock the average Joe up and throw away the key!
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Old 03-08-2019, 12:16 PM   #3770
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Default Bill Shine Abruptly Resigns From White House To Head To Trump Campaign

His departure to become a senior adviser to Trump’s 2020 campaign shows how laser-focused Trump is on reelection, though it’s unclear exactly what spurred Shine’s sudden resignation or why the announcement was made without a replacement lined up to fill his position.

“Bill Shine has done an outstanding job working for me and the Administration. We will miss him in the White House, but look forward to working together on the 2020 Presidential Campaign, where he will be totally involved,” Trump said in a statement. “Thank you to Bill and his wonderful family.”
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Old 03-10-2019, 02:26 PM   #3771
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While R.Kelly, MJ, and say, Woody Allen are recent examples, this debate of art vs. artist's character is as old as, well, art.

For example, D.W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation. Made in 1915, it reflected the attitudes of its time and the 1860's, when it was set. Griffith's father was a colonel in the Confederate Army, and young David must have heard stories. I have no knowledge if D.W. himself was a racist, but do we condemn this movie or recognize it as an art form and jump in movie development?

Or Wagner, of the operas? He was a vicious anti-Semite. Should we never thrill to his "Ride of the Valkyries" again? It's one of my favorites-does that make me awful?

I believe in letting adults use their common sense in what they want to read, hear, watch, etc., and don't want some outside group telling me what I cannot show my children (who have seen BOAN and heard Wagner performed). They realize both Griffith and Wagner were products of their time and place.

If we as a people go down the road of banning things left and right because of the artist's actions, or-and it's not a huge jump to monuments and statues-because the subject didn't have the "right" opinions based on 2019 standards, then we are on a perilous road indeed where we are told what to think and what is "right". Dissension will be punished. There are a few societies, none of which are/were pleasant to live in, in which that was tried.
Banning? I think that's a good way to approach the work of an active perpetrator such as R Kelly. There are other approaches that work for me. Right now my personal policy is refusing to support abusers with my money, and opting for compassion for survivors. For instance, I have adamantly refused to spend another cent on anything that might provide Woody Allen with profit. The daughter he abused is a living person who is injured each time her abuser is held up for praise.

I'm an enormous fan of the work of Rodin. When his artistic and romantic partner, Camille Claudel, balked at her erasure from and lack of credit for her contributions to their collaborative pieces, he had her committed to an insane asylum. Rodin was in strong company. Rembrandt had his housekeeper committed to an insane asylum when she sued him in court for breach of contract after he refused to marry her. They had become lovers after the death of Rembrandt's beloved Saskia. Yes, I continue to enjoy the art of those two men, but I never view their work without acknowledging just how craven those men were. Could I enjoy their work if either woman were still alive? Probably not.

Jackson's many victims are very much alive. I can't imagine how painful it is for each of them to hear his work played on the radio. Without warning, many times a day, each of those people might be forced to hear the music, or see the image, of their abuser. Anywhere, anytime. Who knows besides the abused men which songs or images might trigger them? It must be excruciating for many. I choose not to torment survivors of abuse.

I occasionally work with a man who was sexually assaulted by that dumb f*ck, Kevin Spacey. I'm a survivor myself, so I had already recognized his haunted, hunted look before he ever told me about what happened to him when he was a teenager. I no longer have that look myself. Time has been an ally for me. But my co-worker is clearly sent into a terrible place when his abuser is mentioned. Compassion for survivors should be part of our process whenever we discuss how to handle the art of abusers.
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Old 03-10-2019, 02:47 PM   #3772
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Banning? I think that's a good way to approach the work of an active perpetrator such as R Kelly. There are other approaches that work for me. Right now my personal policy is refusing to support, and opting for compassion for survivors. For instance, I have adamantly refused to spend another cent on anything that might provide Woody Allen with profit. The daughter he abused is a living person who is injured each time her abuser is held up for praise.

I'm an enormous fan of the work of Rodin. When his artistic and romantic partner, Camille Claudel, balked at her erasure and lack of credit for her contributions to their collaborative pieces, he had her committed to an insane asylum. Rodin was in strong company. Rembrandt had his housekeeper committed to an insane asylum when she sued him in court for breach of contract after he refused to marry her. They had become lovers after the death of Rembrandt's beloved Saskia. Yes, I continue to enjoy the art of those two men, but I never view their work without acknowledging just how craven those men were. Could I enjoy their work if either woman were still alive? Probably not.

Jackson's many victims are very much alive. I can't imagine how painful it is for each of them to hear his work played on the radio. Without warning, many times a day, each of those people might be forced to hear the music, or see the image, of their abuser. Anywhere, anytime. Who knows besides the abused men which songs or images might trigger them? It must be excruciating for many. I choose not to torment survivors of abuse.

I occasionally work with a man who was sexually assaulted by that dumb f*ck, Kevin Spacey. I'm a survivor myself, so I had already recognized his haunted, hunted look before he ever told me about what happened to him when he was a teenager. I no longer have that look myself. Time has been an ally for me. But my co-worker is clearly sent into a terrible place when his abuser is mentioned. Compassion for survivors should be part of our process whenever we discuss how to handle the art of abusers.
But who gets to decide for everyone else what is banned? If a statue triggers someone, should it be pulled down even if the person's descendants objects? Who would decide for me what I can't see, watch or read?

I too am a survivor. But I don't want to live in a sterile world free of triggers. I don't want compassion. I want the whole world of art, as messy and controversial as it is.
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Old 03-10-2019, 03:06 PM   #3773
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Originally Posted by Gráinne View Post
But who gets to decide for everyone else what is banned? If a statue triggers someone, should it be pulled down even if the person's descendants objects? Who would decide for me what I can't see, watch or read?

I too am a survivor. But I don't want to live in a sterile world free of triggers. I don't want compassion. I want the whole world of art, as messy and controversial as it is.
I think the movement to stop R Kelly, for instance, is just and empowering. If you want to support his art, go right ahead. His victims/survivors have a right to appeal to any and all to NOT support his art. As long as R Kelly is making money he has power and influence. Unless the law finally catches up to a man who abuses black women, he will face no repercussions. He's shown himself to be someone who feels entitled to abuse women, so I feel good about his downfall.

I think we should be precise about our language, too. I know you haven't done so, Grainne, but whenever this subject comes up, butt hurt men come screaming out of the woodwork to decry the supposed trampling of their right to free speech. When we say 'ban' in reference to a recording artist, we're not talking about any government stopping him from doing his work under penalty of criminal prosecution. We're saying that reputable, compassionate people have decided that the only way to stop this man from victimizing other young women is to cut off his supply of funds. You can have all the messy artists you want, but I'm committed to stopping the careers of active, unrepentant abusers.
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:41 AM   #3774
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Cool College Exam Bust

actresses Felicity Huffman (known for Get Shorty, Desperate Housewives), Lori Loughlin (known for Fuller House, When Calls the Heart, Garage Sales mysteries, 90210, etc.) busted in college admissions cheating scandal, among many others conspired to help parents' kids to get into elite schools

https://nypost.com/2019/03/12/lori-l...ating-scandal/

bribery, fraud, money laundering, etc.... yikes
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:18 PM   #3775
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Cool Cardinal Pell

Chief Judge Peter Kidd has sentenced Cardinal George Pell (highest ranking official of the Catholic Church in Australia - he is 77 years old) to six years in prison, with a non-parole period of three years and eight months, for the sexual abuse of two boys at St Patrick’s Cathedral in the 1990s. I watched Kidd read the sentence @45' online!

He retains (!!!) his title until his appeal is heard...

(cough)
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:25 AM   #3776
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Cool Mass Terrorist Shootings in New Zealand

Right-wing (white supremacist) extremist terrorists shoot and kill in two mosques in Christchurch - watching news on TV (BBC), Jacinda Ardern (Prime Minister) said @40 killed, @48 at least wounded in hospital (approx. 20 seriously) - these numbers may change... in process. What a horror, in such a peaceful country!! Ardern said of those hurt, "They are us", which reminded me of Kennedy's "I am a Berliner", which one can relate to, as in, "I am you" - the youness. Of the 4 suspects who are in custody, she said of them, "They are not us". Really respect all that Ardern has already done in NZ, and understand completely what she meant by her statements, as I cannot relate to nor feel anything at all for those who are abusive.

All this reminds me of something I once read that the worse thing one can say to another is that one parts ways with that person, the separation between us and them.

Curious fact of my life is that life usually keeps abusive people apart from me, which was not the case prior to meditation, as I came from a not-so-perfect childhood. I have no idea whatsoever what one could say that would awaken people to their abusiveness. They seem to act out of choice (which arises from thought) instead of compassion (which arises from love). One understands that any gang like the above-mentioned 4 in custody always target someone to act out their hatred on. All such gangs are always exclusive, instead of being inclusive.

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