Gender Wars - A Femme's Perspective

[Medusa]

As a way to try to honor the conversation around the "Gender Wars" thread in the Butch Zone, I wanted to start a thread here in The Femme Zone where Femmes can feel free to talk about their views and experiences with the "Gender Wars" from the Femme perspective.

I have a lot to say. I am also planning to be brutally honest in this thread because I'm tired of dancing around this shit over and over, year after year and would like to see some forward motion on the conversation/movement and am willing to get naked right here in this thread to help that happen.

Caveat #1 : I am speaking entirely from my place as "Medusa"/Angie/ME and am NOT speaking from an Admin capacity. I recognize the bullshittery in saying "Oooh! This hat is off and this hat is on" because hello? -Point being is that I want to talk freely here and get real and am willing to take any irritation/moderation/question AS A MEMBER. So please, if I piss someone off in this thread, feel free to report my ass like any other member.

Caveat #2 : Even though I am speaking as a MEMBER right now, simply by the osmotic factor of being an admin on this site, the things that people talk about will leak into my psyche so if we come up with anything in this thread that might be helpful in administration, I am 100% willing to commandeer that with your permission to help make this site a better place.

Caveat #3 : I might bust something if someone says they feel "unsafe" with me participating in this conversation with the whole "eye of the Admin" thing so let me repeat... I. WANT. TO. TALK. ABOUT. THIS. AND. AM. WILLING. TO. BE. CHECKED. ON. MY. SHIT. EXACTLY. LIKE. ANY. OTHER. MEMBER.

Caveat #4 : I love you all but Got. Dayum. we need to get this shit together.


I am going to start with a few questions, similiar to what Metro did in her thread over in the Butch Zone just to get the conversation started.
Thanks to all who participate:


* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?


I'll be back in just a bit --

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Medusa

As a way to try to honor the conversation around the "Gender Wars" thread in the Butch Zone, I wanted to start a thread here in The Femme Zone where Femmes can feel free to talk about their views and experiences with the "Gender Wars" from the Femme perspective.

I have a lot to say. I am also planning to be brutally honest in this thread because I'm tired of dancing around this shit over and over, year after year and would like to see some forward motion on the conversation/movement and am willing to get naked right here in this thread to help that happen.

Caveat #1 : I am speaking entirely from my place as "Medusa"/Angie/ME and am NOT speaking from an Admin capacity. I recognize the bullshittery in saying "Oooh! This hat is off and this hat is on" because hello? -Point being is that I want to talk freely here and get real and am willing to take any irritation/moderation/question AS A MEMBER. So please, if I piss someone off in this thread, feel free to report my ass like any other member.

Caveat #2 : Even though I am speaking as a MEMBER right now, simply by the osmotic factor of being an admin on this site, the things that people talk about will leak into my psyche so if we come up with anything in this thread that might be helpful in administration, I am 100% willing to commandeer that with your permission to help make this site a better place.

Caveat #3 : I might bust something if someone says they feel "unsafe" with me participating in this conversation with the whole "eye of the Admin" thing so let me repeat... I. WANT. TO. TALK. ABOUT. THIS. AND. AM. WILLING. TO. BE. CHECKED. ON. MY. SHIT. EXACTLY. LIKE. ANY. OTHER. MEMBER.

Caveat #4 : I love you all but Got. Dayum. we need to get this shit together.


I am going to start with a few questions, similiar to what Metro did in her thread over in the Butch Zone just to get the conversation started.
Thanks to all who participate:


* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?


I'll be back in just a bit --

I just wanted to say thank you very much for starting this thread. I have been thinking a lot about all of this lately. I am impressed that you always seem to have the pulse of the community. I will be back and answer some of the questions later.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Medusa

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

No.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

Often times I wonder if I am unwittingly complicit.

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

No. I feel like there is a hierarchy but not a "war'.

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

I have seen it happen, yes. In the Femme that brags about getting rid of her Butches "hanes her way" underwear and replacing it with boxers to the Femmes that see all Butches as masculine.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

Yes.

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I feel like it is both. It feels like there is not room for everyone sometimes. Do I feel that it is a construct of sexism and misogyny? You bet. I also feel like Misandry is not absent from the mix.

I'll be back in just a bit --

my answers in bold.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Medusa

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

No.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

No.

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No. What I do see is a lot of people (and I'm not just talking about the masculines, here) who have a lack of respect for the "spaces" of people who ID differently than they do. I would not go into a thread that was set aside for Lesbians/Dykes and talk about my experience as a "Bisexual/Pansexual". Because I feel that it would be off-topic and inappropriate.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

Not a war, no. I do on occasion see people trying to have a "Femme-off" in which they try to prove that they are more Femme than the next Femme, or that their way of Femme is the correct way of being Femme. What I tend to chalk that up to is that the person initiating that stupid dialogue probably has no real-time community, ergo only sees/knows/experiences other Femmes on a pretty surface level...and simply doesn't know better.

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

No.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

I have a human identity. Unless you're talking pronouns, in which case it's "she" or "bitch, please".

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

No. What I do think is that the adage "if you expect to find oppression everywhere...you will" (something like that) is at work here. I see people presuming the worst intentions of others and getting their feelings hurt when in reality the person who has hurt their feelings -really- has done nothing hurtful.

[princessbelle]

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?
No
* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?
No
* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?
attack?
ummmm, no, I do feel the uneasinest that has started with all these discussions but I do also appreciate "almost all" of the adult conversations that have come from them. It has been very interesting to me, as a femme, to see/read the responses and then the responses to the responses. It certainly makes me stop and think about the wordage that I use and makes me determined to be more careful.
* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not? No, not at all.....seems to be more of the masculine ID's IDs that has been the hot topic.
* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

contribute? Well, as I've said in the other threads...I like to LISTEN to what my sig other or friend for that matter WANTS to be called and address them in that manner. Seems easy enough. In the threads? I reallly try HARD to not step on toes. Sometimes it happens anyway...but with the posts I've read over the past few days, I'm learning to be even more careful. BTW, it's not that I'm afraid to step on toes at all, it's just not my style.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?
Totally feminine, totally woman. No ifs ands or buts to ME that is.
* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I believe it all starts with the internal and once that internal has been fed into the mind and heart long enough, it then proclaims to the outside world what the ID is and feels worthy to be called. I really think some of us took a long time and watched/read/talked long and hard until we found a true gender identity that suited us all individually. With that said, of course we feel strong about how we see ourselves and just want others to see us that way as well. The problems come in when you have this strong inner ID and someone comes along and seems to want to change it.

Don't matter what others think or say or desire or exhibit or intrude on IDs ..what matters is that the internal fixation of your journey has been made and completed and YOU know who you are.....that is the most important ID of all. Just knowing who you are. Titles are a dime a dozen as are opinions. Learning is what I hope to do here, and not judge. Learning, in the end is really all that life is about...IMO

[Random]

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

Sometimes. Sometimes it seems as if I (I want to say we, but I can't talk for anyone else)have to walk on eggshells when it comes to butch/trans ID... as if it is so fragile, as if the outside world has been so hard that they have to be coddled, put first, their wants and needs come before anyone else...
Sometimes it feels like there is no right way... If you go from a female/woman default, then you have the male id'd screaming that they exist as well.. If you add male or woman, then you have people who feel butch is a gender up in arms because they are just butch and don't feel they are being respresented..
Sometimes.. to me.. for me.. it feels like I am in the middle of a group of children all screaming for attention, for me to tell them they are special and they are seen...

Sometimes I just close out the window and go away... Because in life I have to deal with guys coming before me... At the job, at the store, hell in line at freaking mcd's... They are busy, they have important stuff to do, they need to have their needs met first... Because sometimes it feel like that here too.. Male is all inportant and we need to move over and make room for them where ever they want that room to be..

So sometimes I feel that way... other times I don't...

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

No... I personaly think that in every gender/race/religion there are broad spectums of every personality trait... I don't believe one is better than the other, that one is special... It simply is what you are.. you can't make one the standard.. (This one was hard for me.. It took a lot of undoing to stop seeing myself as less than because I was told I wasn't as femme as I should be.. But I am.. I am the only kind of femme I can be.. just as you are the only kind of femme you can be..)

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?
For me? No.. I don't think there is any agenda.. Sometimes I think it's leak over from the world.. In the world, a mans place is any place that he says it is.. Sometimes I think this mind set colors the way that conversations develope..

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

I don't.. Maybe I don't see it, but I've never felt that from another femme.. All my femmie insecurities came from butches telling me I was less than because I wasn't this or that...

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

No.. I don't think I have that power.. But most of the butches/Tguys that I know have done lots of work on who they are and are pretty secure in them selves before we even meet..

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?
I have a feminine identity.. I don't know what it would feel like to have a masculine identity

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

Yes, I do... My partner and I were talking about this last night.. That society conditions women to put the wants and needs of men first.. (we were talking history) and how that translates to butch/femme... I was talking about how when women introduce themseves, they Id who their husband is and how long they have been married, how many children they have, and last they talk about them selves... I brought up the point that when femmes have a thread for themselves, they talk about their partners, or butches...
QUOTE]

[amiyesiam]

[QUOTE=Medusa;115551]As a way to try to honor the conversation around the "Gender Wars" thread in the Butch Zone, I wanted to start a thread here in The Femme Zone where Femmes can feel free to talk about their views and experiences with the "Gender Wars" from the Femme perspective.

I have a lot to say. I am also planning to be brutally honest in this thread because I'm tired of dancing around this shit over and over, year after year and would like to see some forward motion on the conversation/movement and am willing to get naked right here in this thread to help that happen.

Caveat #1 : I am speaking entirely from my place as "Medusa"/Angie/ME and am NOT speaking from an Admin capacity. I recognize the bullshittery in saying "Oooh! This hat is off and this hat is on" because hello? -Point being is that I want to talk freely here and get real and am willing to take any irritation/moderation/question AS A MEMBER. So please, if I piss someone off in this thread, feel free to report my ass like any other member.

Caveat #2 : Even though I am speaking as a MEMBER right now, simply by the osmotic factor of being an admin on this site, the things that people talk about will leak into my psyche so if we come up with anything in this thread that might be helpful in administration, I am 100% willing to commandeer that with your permission to help make this site a better place.

Caveat #3 : I might bust something if someone says they feel "unsafe" with me participating in this conversation with the whole "eye of the Admin" thing so let me repeat... I. WANT. TO. TALK. ABOUT. THIS. AND. AM. WILLING. TO. BE. CHECKED. ON. MY. SHIT. EXACTLY. LIKE. ANY. OTHER. MEMBER.

Caveat #4 : I love you all but Got. Dayum. we need to get this shit together.


I am going to start with a few questions, similiar to what Metro did in her thread over in the Butch Zone just to get the conversation started.
Thanks to all who participate:


* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

As a human, if and when I feel animosity against anyone, it is based on the content of their character, nothing else.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

I don't see myself as being at war with anyone. War is violence. I don't do violence

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

What I see is butches who have had to be "out there" in order to be who they are. A group who has pretty much taken shit all their lives in order to just live life. Be it the female id's hearing you just wanna be men, which they don't want to be, or the male id's being told they are women, which they aren't. Butches are who they are period.
I don't think anyone has an agenda, I think people want to be seen for who they are. I for one see butches for who they are.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

I would prepose that if femmes id both male and female we would see the same thing going on with femmes. No matter how we see our selves as femme, we all use the pronoun her/she etc. There might be convos about feeling femme enough though

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

I think butches/trans form their own identity based on who they are, not on what femmes think/say. I sure as hell don't decide who I am or how to be based on what butches think. I do think that some femmes feel a need to defend their butches (god knows they take a lot of crap in the real world)

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

I have a human identity. That identity is made up of a hella lota traits that fall all over the place on the feminine/masculine continumum.

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

What I see is people saying there is a gender war. I see groups trying to be seen. Groups that seem to think that that if one group is seen the other isn't. So often I have to go back and read posts cause my filters tend to see people as sane and nice, I don't see the bull shit person A is calling person B on. After the shit starts flying both sides get ugly and you cant miss the bull.
I just don't understand why we have to function in a win/lose, us/or them mentality.
Some days I just want to say GROW THE FUCK UP it is 2010, there is enough for everyone. We can have win/win, me, you, us, them. We can see everyone. We can assume best case not worst case.



and finally if THEY come for the sexual deviants, they will be coming for ALL OF US, and in that moment we will all be on the same side, defending each other. We have way to much freedom (that we take for granted) when we can argue with the very people we would defend.


I'll be back in just a bit -

[Heart]

* Do you feel ... that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

YES!

For me, this is the point. Really the only point I give a flying FUCK about. This is why we end up in these "gender wars."

It isn't that we don't respect diversity, it isn't that we can't accept each others different journies or pronouns, it's that THIS, the absolute concrete reality of sexism and misogyny, is under-recognized as the MUCK in which we are all swimming while we do our journies and choose our pronouns and create our identities. THAT'S THE PROBLEM!

That's the reason I started the "men with boobs" thread. That's the reason I comment in gender threads. That's the reason I stand up and speak out when I choose to do so. That's the THING that matters in all of this.

At least to me.

Heart (naked, bold, and in big font)

ETA: This is also why I suggest to the admins that they add the word "sexist" to TOS #5 and 5a

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Medusa

As a way to try to honor the conversation around the "Gender Wars" thread in the Butch Zone, I wanted to start a thread here in The Femme Zone where Femmes can feel free to talk about their views and experiences with the "Gender Wars" from the Femme perspective.

I have a lot to say. I am also planning to be brutally honest in this thread because I'm tired of dancing around this shit over and over, year after year and would like to see some forward motion on the conversation/movement and am willing to get naked right here in this thread to help that happen.

Caveat #1 : I am speaking entirely from my place as "Medusa"/Angie/ME and am NOT speaking from an Admin capacity. I recognize the bullshittery in saying "Oooh! This hat is off and this hat is on" because hello? -Point being is that I want to talk freely here and get real and am willing to take any irritation/moderation/question AS A MEMBER. So please, if I piss someone off in this thread, feel free to report my ass like any other member.

Caveat #2 : Even though I am speaking as a MEMBER right now, simply by the osmotic factor of being an admin on this site, the things that people talk about will leak into my psyche so if we come up with anything in this thread that might be helpful in administration, I am 100% willing to commandeer that with your permission to help make this site a better place.

Caveat #3 : I might bust something if someone says they feel "unsafe" with me participating in this conversation with the whole "eye of the Admin" thing so let me repeat... I. WANT. TO. TALK. ABOUT. THIS. AND. AM. WILLING. TO. BE. CHECKED. ON. MY. SHIT. EXACTLY. LIKE. ANY. OTHER. MEMBER.

Caveat #4 : I love you all but Got. Dayum. we need to get this shit together.


I am going to start with a few questions, similiar to what Metro did in her thread over in the Butch Zone just to get the conversation started.
Thanks to all who participate:


* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

NO

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

Sometimes, not out in the real world mostly here, I experience a lot of eeewies, looked down on, my morals in question, definitely judgment for being as sexual as I am. It comes from both gender spectrums, femme's- questioning my ethics because of my sexual freedom, or the whole *flippin' butches*, the they have to hold their man back because I happen to have slaves that I want their man I could go on.. Butches of any ID, trans guys, guys, I get the whole they stupid me when speaking to me by refering to me as sweetie or honey or silly or talked to like I am 4, my physical strength, mental and emotional is not femme, lack of dresses and looking stepford, I can go on with this too.

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No, what I see is a lot of people not taking time to listen to one another.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

Sometimes it's more underhanded though when it starts if that makes sense.

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? Hell yes, it happens in circles I experience off line with some members of this realm and it happens outside as well, I have repeatedly watched and corrected myself how a femme addresses a butch, and have watched the femme flips her hand in dismissal because why would Sandy want to be called Paul if they don't identify as trans cause well you are only a girl no matter how you look or want to identify. I see a lot of it happening here, with the expectations and then jesus forbid a break up happens then they refer to them as her, or him or whatever or use their girl name or god forbid if they want to be fucked then they are a waste and no real butch would want that, I could go on and on with this as well H
How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

above answer can be applied to this as well

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

Yes

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Sometimes it feels like it

Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

Yes.

Yes, I think our shit carries over and it's applied here or tried to, and yuck yuck to the slings of misandry. I ain't perfect I am sure I have some fucked up views and sexist thoughts, I do however know not to come in and type of bunch of my shit and not expect a call out, matter of fact I do expect it I would call someone out.





I'll be back in just a bit --

I hope that is sufficient, thanks for the thread Medusa!

[SuperFemme]

I guess a Femmes perspective isn't valuable unless it is given in space shared by Butches. Until it is.

[Gemme]

I will refer my answers to Adele's answers in her first post, because they are very nearly identical to what I was thinking.

Get out of my brain, beautiful, I need it for work tomorrow.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I will refer my answers to Adele's answers in her first post, because they are very nearly identical to what I was thinking.

Get out of my brain, beautiful, I need it for work tomorrow.

I'll be gentle when reading your mind. I promise. you won't feel a thing.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have to request or at least ask..

Can we keep our femme stuff in the femme thread and not drag it out for butch validation

please?

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Medusa

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

No, i do not.

Originally Posted by Medusa

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

No.

Originally Posted by Medusa

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No. i see defensiveness and fear and a lot of people seeing things only through their own lens.

Originally Posted by Medusa

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

No.

Originally Posted by Medusa

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

i do. i think we form identities in part to attract the kind of people we want to attract.

Originally Posted by Medusa

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

i don't think of it that way, but feminine.

Originally Posted by Medusa

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

No, i do not think there is a gender war. Yes, sexism and misogyny are behind a lot of the group dynamics that are taking place.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I have to request or at least ask..

Can we keep our femme stuff in the femme thread and not drag it out for butch validation

please?

I'm not sure this & SF's above post are directed at me -- but if they are -- that's not at all what I was doing when I posted in the butch thread. See my response there. If you care to.

*sigh*

I'm gonna say right here in this safe respected femme zone that I feel really defeated. And fucking sad. So sad, I'm actually crying. WTH? I'm so done now. I'm really fucking done.

Thanks.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm not sure this & SF's above post are directed at me -- but if they are -- that's not at all what I was doing when I posted in the butch thread. See my response there. If you care to.

*sigh*

I'm gonna say right here in this safe respected femme zone that I feel really defeated. And fucking sad. So sad, I'm actually crying. WTH? I'm so done now. I'm really fucking done.

Thanks.

My intent was not to make you cry, it's a simple request to it feels oogy to have things dragged from here to a butch zone, it's dismissive almost make sense?

[SuperFemme]

Heart? I am sorry you are crying and I hope you know that is not something anyone would strive for.

I totally *get* how important a conversation about misogyny and sexism is, and how important it is to you personally. I do.

I am not trying to negate that in any way, but I would beg of you to realize that while those things are crucial to this conversation they are not the only thing this is about.

I've had my own cry today after somebody took the title of an article I wrote for another site and brought it over here in a somewhat convoluted manner.

So if it matters, I, Me, Adele feel a little more comfortable having this discussion in the manner that Medusa framed it here. From a Femme perspective. Because at the end of the day, a Femme perspective (or rather MY Femme perspective) is the only perspective I can address without speculation.

[Medusa]

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

No, but I have.
(insert gasps of horror from the peanut gallery here)
I have learned, perhaps through age or gaining more wisdom, that it's foolishly ignorant to lump entire groups of people together as if one speaks for all and vice versa.
In the way that racism, sexism, sizeism, homophobia, etc. work by ignorance, fear, or outright prejudices taking root where critical thought should reside, I have to raise my hand high here and plead a big, fat "Guilty". I'd be lying my ass off if I said that I hadn't made the comment, "I am so sick of logging into the Dash site and seeing that every single thread on the front page is about Trans issues, WHERE THE FUCK ARE THE BUTCHES AND FEMMMMMEEESSSSSS???" (and insert some dramatic chest pounding here please because I do so love the hystrionics). I'd be lying if I said that I didn't at that time translate that to an erasure of my own Butch/Femme culture and I'd be lying if I said that I didn't think that "Trans people were taking over."
I said those things. I thought those things. It's the truth.
In excavating the "Why" behind all of that, I found a lot of fear and triggery stuff in my own personal orbit. The fear of being erased, the fear of being marginalized, the fear of having a binary that I didn't want in my orbit shoved front and center into the very orbit I was trying to "protect".
I was reacting to the fear by feeling "attacked". The fact of the matter was that the abundance of Trans threads on the front page of a website did not "erase" me as a Femme. One did not negate the other.
At the time, not seeing threads that related directly to me or the Butch people that I choose to partner with felt as if my world was getting smaller and smaller. Why? I had to ask myself-- WAS my world getting smaller and smaller? WAS I being erased? WAS I being homogenized without my consent?
Looking back on that thought process now, I see where I was basing the existence of mySELF on how other people exist. (Trans people in that example). The value of mySELF on the value of other people. The validity of my way of being and identity on how many visual cues I had on the front page of a website. Fear. Ignorance. Transphobia.
The "but what about MEEEEEEE?" is as loud in my head when *I* feel it as it is on the screen when I see other people doing it.

Now, the above feelings didnt happen in a vacuum for me. We DO live in a very fucked up world where women are seen as less than and devalued and disrespected on a daily fucking basis. So guess what? I personalized the political. Because it IS personal. Except when it isnt.
I accept that I have to claim MY space in this world without infringing on, negating, or disrespecting someone else's space, otherwise I'm no better than the greater social construct that disrespects me.
That whole "becoming part of the problem" thing when I act out on the micro-cause, hoping to affect the macro.


* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

I don't see my gender ID or personal self feeling at war with other Femme ID's. I would boil it down to a matter of security with my identity and an acceptance that someone else's way of Femme doesn't really have squat to do with mine.
I will use Leah Lakshmi Piepzna Samarasinha's whole "Femme Shark" identity as my case in point. Leah has quite a following with her Femme Shark identity and a lot of other amazing, powerful Femmes who identify as Femme Sharks. I do not identify as a Femme Shark, nor do I feel threatened by the presence of Femme Sharks, nor do I feel the need to investigate/parse/tease out/question/infiltrate/dismiss/invalidate anyone who chooses to identify as a Femme Shark.

As far as being complicit in a war between Butch or Trans IDs, I don't want to be held responsible for the way someone else identifies but I fully recognize that we all impact each other whether we want to or not.
I think that there have been times when "The Universal Femme" has been held responsible for "good Butches transitioning because they have been pushed toward maleness". Or other times when "The Universal Femme" (per example in another thread) is responsible for the pronoun default to "he" for all Butches.
This, quite frankly, pisses me off. It's scapegoating to hold an entire group of people, some of whom who may have never EVER defaulted to "he" for any Butch, responsible for Butch people feeling marginalized. I believe that shit should be called it as it happens, when it happens, and to the person who does it and not left to fester and boil over like a shitty stew until "The Universal Femme" is now to blame for the entire fuckery.
I also believe that if we are talking specifically about this website or the dash site that "whoever" (my Gotdayum hat is OFF so yes, Im going there) is in charge has a fucking RESPONSIBILITY to make sure that things like someone saying that "Femmes like to be handled by Transmen because they are stronger than Butches" is checked hard, swiftly, and responsibly. Because THAT shit? Left unchecked? IS DAMAGING. Not only to the Butch that it erases, invalidates, and disrespects, but also to the Femme that it erases, invalidates, and disrespects, but also to the other Transmen that it erases, invalidates, and disrespects, AND to the community at large that it disrespects.



* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

An agenda? No.
What I *do* see happening is a LOT of personalization and reflecting back to the self even when someone else is looking at their own reflection in the community mirror. I see people *feeling* attacked and reacting to it in ways that are sometimes healthy and sometimes not healthy. I see lines being drawn, fences being built, flags being staked, surveys being done, voices being drowned out, etc.
I see exchanges being made-- "Im going to have to have some of your space so I can have my own" without those words being said out loud.
I see something shitty going on around only being able to honor something if something else is dishonored.


* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

No. I never have actually. I have certainly felt the ridiculous trappings of "Well, Im a better Femme than you because I don't even OWN a pair of flats!" but I usually read that as insecurity or ignorance.
If the person saying it is at all intelligent, it pisses me of for them to stoop down to that "IM A DIAMOND PLATINUM FORMICA CRYSTAL FEMME AND YOUUUUUUUU ARE NOT!" (implied Nanny Nanny Boo Boo here) because it feels a little simple and well, I expect better than that from smart people.
I actually see Femmes doing a better job of managing ourselves around respecting each other's way of being Femme. Im sure Im going to catch some shit for that statement but it's how I feel. I recognize that Femmes often do not have the same gender filters that Butches and Transmen have because I think most Femmes do identify as female or woman but I've seen Femmes talk openly about feeling like a boi inside or feeling masculine and I don't recall seeing other Femmes go into the conversation with anything about how the Femme who id'd as a boi was invalidating/marginalizing/disrespecting the Femme who didnt.


* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?


As a whole, no, I don't think that Femmes have the power to influence the identity formation of Butches or Transmen. On a micro level? On an individual level? HELL. YES.
I've seen it, I've heard it, I've felt it. It's my truth.
I'll have to go back to my irritation about someone being comfortable and secure with themselves here. People , to me, are responsible for *themselves* and thus, must take responsibility for their own identity and gender formation regardless of who they are dating. If the person (of any gender) is secure/informed/comfortable with themselves, there is NOTHING that I or "The Universal Femme" should be able to say or do to make that person change how they are existing. If *they* change how they are existing to fit someone else's idea of existing, THEY are responsible for that.


* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

I have both and embrace them both. Both my feminine self and masculine self (which I identify as Dyke) are equally valuable, authentic, and valid. So are yours, whoever you are.


* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?


I don't know if I would go so far as to call it a Gender War but I definitely see something happening. Fencing, dividing, borders, etc. I am reading animosity from some women and female identified Butches around their treatment on not only this website but other websites and the world at large. I am reading animosity from people who are tired of going round and round about this issue. I am reading animosity from people who wish we would look at being at war or the oil spill in the Gulf as more important than the naval-gazing and self-identifying.

I am *feeling* irritated with the circular jerking off of our collective gender organs where the fucking money shot never gets cleaned up. Instead we are all stepping in and around each other's goo and I am just weary with the whole "never getting anywhere" part of it.

I DO think that the world is chock full of sexism and misogyny and that yes, we MUST work to dismantle it, but NOT by using the tool of misandry to do it and NOT at the expense of male or masculine identified people.
We cannot "fix" sexism by singing "I am Woman" at the top of our lungs in our cubicles at work (believe me, I tried). All that does is make us look like "militant feminists who really arent interested in anything but our own agendas". We cannot force people to examine their internal misogyny by using anger or waggling our fingers in their faces. We can BE angry. We can BE pissed off. We can BE sick of it. We can BE thinking that they are a mouth-breathing idiot, but I have found that people have to do their own work and be WILLING to do their own work.
The willingness? We cant do shit about that. Some people are just fine being ignorant dipshits.


I have a LOT more to say here but I need a Diet Coke (smirk at Linus) BBIAB.

[Nat]

oh goodie, I love questionaires

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

nope

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

No.

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

There have been times when I have seen some grumblings regarding different descriptions of femmes ("high femme" comes to mind) and I've also seen some grumblings about femmes feeling negated by others if they are stone bottoms or some femmes feeling negated because of an expectation that stone bottom-femmes are somehow femmier than the rest of us. But I haven't seen anything heated regarding this lately and I don't think it amounts to a "war" anyway. Have we ironed all that out already?

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

I'm on the fence with this one. I think people sometimes embark on a gender exploration when they feel safe to do so, and part of feeling safe for a lot of people is to feel like you are loved and will be loved and accepted no matter what. I think also if a person feels their genuine ID is unpopular amongst femmes (or whomever a person is attracted to), that can make a person feel not so good.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

I feel I'm both feminine and masculine. I'm also bigender, and my boy is more feminine than my girl if anything.

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

No, I really don't think there's a gender war, but I feel like there really isn't a gender peace either.

I feel like sexist and misogynist society is at work at large and within me, and the best I can do is try to know it in myself and "be the change I want to see in the world." I also think within and without our community, we are potentially dealing with homophobia and transphobia too - and sometimes these different elements can work to obfuscate what's really going on in any conversation.

[apretty]

my responses in green:

Originally Posted by Medusa

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

i don't feel animosity--i do feel protective of female-identified butches because keeping the *she* in this world has become a subversive act, and i think that's super ballsy.

and i'm suspect of the multitudes of young butches that see transitioning as the answer.


and i feel that male-identified/presenting peoples are privileged and i would love if that were acknowledged more often.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

i'm not at war with anyone but i don't get stonefemme as a 'gender' nor do i get the trans-sensual femme type person. (--i've dated trans-people, it didn't make me trans-sensual and i've dated stonebutches, again--it didn't make me stonefemme...) but, people can be/ do what they want.

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

i probably could read closer and come to a conclusion about that--but i think we've all got our agendas and some people are louder than others.

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

again, i don't see a war. i see that society positions women against each other and so unless you've done some work in this area and continue to work pretty hard at not being suspicious of your sisters, you're going to be a product of our society (which sucks, but it is what it is).

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

yes. the femme that wants a hetero-normative dynamic is going to subtly (or not) encourage her partner to transition.

and there's blanket statements about 'all butches' and examples on this site of femmes he-ing butches, regardless of whether they're HE.

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

feminine

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

i think there's lots of conversations to be had. some small, some big and really i don't know why anyone has to be so *fatalistic* about a bunch of people having a discussion on gender.

perhaps i'm not getting the war-stuff, but in the end i believe we all know that there's power/strength and safety in numbers--and despite how dreadfully annoying i might find a person's communication style, it behooves us to get along.