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Old 10-28-2017, 05:44 PM   #1
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When the NYT broke the story on Harvey Weinstein, I was a bit concerned about how this would unfold. Given the history of how these have played out in the past, it seemed to be a legitimate concern.

With the author being Ronan Farrow (of the Mia Farrow-Dylan Farrow- Ronan Farrow-Soon Yi Previn-Woody Allen story) there was concern this history would undermine the credibility of the story. I was pleased it did not.

Even as more and more women came forward about their experiences with Weinstein as well as other named and unnamed Hollywood figures, I was still waiting for the other shoe to drop. Men recalling their encounters with the same type of behaviors, child stars coming forth as well, and women from other industries coming forward as well (even tho they were not naming the people involved) made me more hopeful that the scope of the problem was being realized.

Also adding to the potential for something positive was Weinstein being ousted from his own company, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences striping him of his membership, the Producers Guild of America pursuing expulsion, British Academy of Film and Television Arts ousting him, his wife filing for divorce, his lawyer quitting, the police in Ca and NY looking into criminal charges etc. Social media had started the #metoo campaign which seems to be dwindling now.

There were more stories about Weinstein leaving the country to receive treatment - all reading as tho he had admitted to the accusations. I had to dig to find that he was saying the expected - anything that happened was consensual and he would fight any charges.

There was a lot of action going on but what did it mean? Was the action the result of Weinsteins behavior being a well known secret? Was there some fundamental change in thinking about this issue? Or, were people acting and speaking out to protect themselves from potential lawsuits and/or distancing themselves from negative publicity/prior affiliations? People denouncing Weinstein and then being accused themselves of the same behavior was an interesting twist.

A week later, I started seeing examples of the norm returning. Woody Allen cautioned about a rush to judgement. Then stories were cropping up about women saying some of the encounters were consensual, while others were not. After that, I started seeing more and more unflattering innuendo and blaming about what it meant that women waited so long to come forward, and what it meant that women who are now accusing him accepted monetary settlements. That was followed by insinuations that women cannot tell the difference between flirting, someone expressing interest, someone asking them out for a date, inappropriate behavior, sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape. This was followed by the usual suggestions that we need to redefine the terms - apparently this will help us women be able to tell the difference better.

This latter stuff was coming from both males and females. It is not unusual or unexpected. It is the norm.

And then today, I saw this opinion piece about Ellen Degeneres. This too was not unexpected. When people are feeling threatened, turning the tables, blaming, shaming, deflecting, derailing is very common.

Altho the Ellen opinion piece is from Fox, it still has some merit. The issue has been addressed on this site a few times, mostly from femmes who have found some posts from butches/trans (cant remember) which makes them feel uncomfortable or icky.

I keep following the story with interest to see what good may come out of this. Raising awareness of the prevalence of such behavior is a step in the right direction.

But, given it is a complex and multifaceted issue, I fear it will be swept back under the rug as soon as it is "safe" to do so.

I'm interested in others take on this, especially thoughts of anything hopeful or positive that may arise from it.

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Old 10-28-2017, 05:57 PM   #2
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excellent views kobi Thank You for bringing up the facts. I am very confused as well as concerned about the integrity of the woman who were assaulted. I believe they were subjected to Weinstein's criminal sexual behavior. the confusing part is why did woman give in to his sexual threats ?? I'm saddened that so many woman gave in and didn't fight back ! The woman who he drugged for his own personal demented pleasure sure is reason enough for punishment . I pray to God for peace in this world everyday. For those woman with regrets , I wish them forgiveness of themselves .Again, thanks for the post Kobi .
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Old 10-29-2017, 04:52 AM   #3
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I'd written a short essay then Loki (or some other trickster god) ate it just before I completed it :-(

Short version of the lost chunk - media items will never be precise - there is a lot of assumed common understanding due to assumed common experience in ALL language, in order to keep sentences short and pithy. Some folk love to nitpick the perceived failings of pithy articles, assuming that only they have the wit to understand that the subject needs a more in-depth treatment in order to be fair. Some article-writers seem to be unaware that their articles cannot be fully accurate without putting off most of their intended audience, whilst others seem not to care. Ellen may have been criticising a certain kind of male behaviour by aping it for comedic effect - which is a known good way of tackling difficult subjects, sometimes. I do not know Ellen or her works or the situation reported well enough to feel in any way sure.

To continue...

We are free to think of others what we like in the privacy of the interior of our own heads - including lusting after boobies, muscles, or whatever. The issue is, IMO, to do with politness and entitlement. I don't in the least mind being chatted up by guys so long as they are polite throughout - including just after I've politely declined.

Given that we we are all sexual beings (those of us who are), and have our preferences in those we see as potential sexual partners (irrespective of whether the object of our desire reciprocates), how the hell else is one to think about those preferences without some form of objectification taking place at some point in proceedings?

I think that the problem here is again one of the way that language works - we often initially make a statement that is roughly what we mean, then clarify with follow-up statements, in cases where what we are talking about is complex. Sometimes it takes many, many clarifications to cover a subject correctly and adequately. In general social interactions -which are VERY complex - we do not have time to do all the clarification stuff. Assumptions and body language has to do a lot of that work. Can you imagine trying to chat someone up by explaining PRECISELY, in full, how you feel about them, the very first time you open your mouth to them, without taking an absolute age about it and losing the moment? In practice what folk tend to do is fling something out there, see what comes back, and (hopefully) hone in on things from there. It's a negotiated verbal dance to see where the outcome is going to be.

On the subject of sexual social interactions, I'm minded of the old joke about "well, if you wanted to go there, I wouldn't be starting from here...", If 'there' is equitable polite interaction that causes no distress to anyone and 'here' is how things are currently. Yes, we all live in societies with a long and unfortunate history of doing large chunks of the population a disservice by dint of being born with some characteristic or set of characteristics or other, and it's not that long since women were regarded as chattels even here in the UK (my grandmothers were born into such a world). And it's both important and necessary to question old social habits and try to replace them with better ones. But it's also important to try to avoid replacing one unpleasant regime with another.

There is far too much casual violence against women in the world, even today, here in the UK. There is far too much casual expectation that us women are here only for the benefit of males, and that our main worth is either in bed or as cheap labour, or to produce offspring for males. There is too much casual assumption that what women do does not matter, and is not so important as what men do. Ultimately, it boils down to a society having ingrained in it the notion of 'might is right', with all of the ugliness that that entails. And it's also true that women are not the only victims of societal attitudes and strictures. Clearly, society needs to change in order to improve things for us all.

Feminism is a movement that seeks to help us all address those issues, to make society a nicer and fairer place for all, irrespective of gender - but it started from a place of womens extreme disadvantage in the world as was. I have counted myself feminist from the moment I first read something on the subject, at age fifteen, IIRC. It blew my mind. It was wonderful! Yes! Here were people actually thinking aloud about how to make the world better rather than just going 'shut up, and know your place!'.

I was as intellectually in love with feminism as I was with the sciences, until the realisation dawned on me that feminists, being human, can be just as fallible as anyone else, and some can be so passionate in favour of trying to right the wrongs that have been inflicted against women for so long that they are blind to the wrongs they might inflict on others. In particular, in my case, I suffered greatly due to the currency given certain notions about transgendered folk by Mary Daly and her pupil, Janice Raymond, that were in fact no more than attempts to justify their own bigotry - in my opinion (and yes, I have read Raymonds book thoroughly AND looked at a sample of the sources quoted therein, and I am disgusted with both Raymond and Daly as a result). But that does not diminish Daly's achievements in getting us to look at the very language we use to communicate and see how ingrained bias against women is. The woman was, IMO, a genius - but a flawed one. Can't say as I'm perfect, either.

Women have been stigmatised in society for such a long time, and in languages. In class last week, we learnt the names of the parts of flowers. I learnt that the stigma is the entrance to the ovary in flowers. I suspect some of you may be thinking pretty much what I was thinking when I learnt that. If something is stigmatised, it is thought lesser or undesirable, and here is the word stigma referring to female genitalia, in essence. Hmmmnn..

So, what do we do about it? Rant and rave? Insist evryone immediately switch to other behaviours and other ways of talking about things? Would any of us expect that to happen? Would any of us actually DO that? Probably not.
What we can, and are more likely to do, is to try to modify behaviour in a more acceptable direction. Like being more polite to each other. Treating people as people, irrespective of whether some of their bits are like beacons to our libidos. Not imagining ourselves to have some kind of innate entitlement over others bodies (if someone voluntarily grants such entitlement to another, whether conditional or otherwise, that's another matter!) . Rinse and repeat over the generations,and hopefully society will improve over time, even if it does not right now.

Personally, then, I think it's not so much a case of doing away with objectification that's needed, as the impoliteness of objectification being expressed in inappropriate manners in inappropriate social situations being done away with that's needed. Does a nice pair of breasts attract my attention? Oh, my, yes - I am a lesbian, after all! Would I gawp at them in public as if the rest of the person they belong to didn't exist? Absolutely not! Would I behave differently were I in bed with their owner? Sure! - but I'd still be considerate of her as a human being, just as I'd expect her to be considerate of me as a human being.

Politeness is the answer to a LOT of social problems that aren't caused by sheer bigotry, IMO.
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Old 10-29-2017, 05:03 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by ~ocean View Post
excellent views kobi Thank You for bringing up the facts. I am very confused as well as concerned about the integrity of the woman who were assaulted. I believe they were subjected to Weinstein's criminal sexual behavior. the confusing part is why did woman give in to his sexual threats ?? I'm saddened that so many woman gave in and didn't fight back ! The woman who he drugged for his own personal demented pleasure sure is reason enough for punishment . I pray to God for peace in this world everyday. For those woman with regrets , I wish them forgiveness of themselves .Again, thanks for the post Kobi .
i struggle with questioning this without feeling like i am blaming the victim.

i am sure they felt if they didn’t, that they would never work again, or they had NO other option if they did want to work.



Bottom line is that they should have never been put in that position.
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Old 10-29-2017, 05:40 AM   #5
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It really annoys me when people bring up the issue of how to express genuine interest in someone in this context. That's not what Weinstein was doing. Not what Wieseltier at the New Republic was doing. They got off on hurting and humiliating women, and they got away with it because they were willing to use their power to punish and reward victims.
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Old 10-29-2017, 05:44 AM   #6
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Martina, my bad as I did lose sight of that somewhat in how I expressed what I said - but I was talking about entitlement and objectification, and Weinstein clearly felt entitled to others bodies without reference to them as human beings. He was impolite to such a degree (and on such a scale) that it was horrific. I'd argue that ultimately it was a failure of his manners, his lack of consideration for others, that caused things to go as they did. And as Dee has said, he got away with it through unfair economic power - the tool so often used by the powerful to abuse others.

Again, language, and the difficulties of expressing things both succinctly and accurately. :-(

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Old 10-29-2017, 06:54 AM   #7
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Martina, my bad as I did lose sight of that somewhat in how I expressed what I said - but I was talking about entitlement and objectification, and Weinstein clearly felt entitled to others bodies without reference to them as human beings. He was impolite to such a degree (and on such a scale) that it was horrific. I'd argue that ultimately it was a failure of his manners, his lack of consideration for others, that caused things to go as they did. And as Dee has said, he got away with it through unfair economic power - the tool so often used by the powerful to abuse others.

Again, language, and the difficulties of expressing things both succinctly and accurately. :-(
I think what Weinstein did goes way beyond failure of manners and lack of consideration. What comes to mind when I hear that is someone not getting up on a crowded bus and giving up their seat to someone who needs it. He’s a vulture who used all types of power to abuse and rape And while I am not going to get into specifics as to the situations I have been inwhen I experienced the same things, I will say I didn’t give in to anything. I had no other choice at the time. Just like all women that are abused and raped, if I actually thought I had a choice at the time, it would never have happened.
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Old 10-29-2017, 07:56 AM   #8
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I appreciate everyone's input thus far.

The topic of sexual assault, sexual harassment, inappropriate behavior can take us in many different and valid directions.

With Weinstein, the thing that I am trying to get a grip on is the ways in which his situation unfolded differently from the norm and what might that difference might mean.

What's the norm? Compare Cosby to Weinstein.

For Cosby, his livelihood was threatened. Some venues cancelled his shows, some let the show go on, some straddled the fence.

Weinstein was fired in less than 24 hours. He resigned from the board in a little over 24 hours. The professional organizations ousted him within days.

Camille Cosby has steadfastly stood by her man. Weinsteins wife announced she was divorcing him within 72 hours.

Cosby's colleagues, if they chose to comment, avoided commenting on the accusations, choosing to focus on stories of the person they knew.

Weinstein's colleagues threw him under the bus, drove over him, backed up and did it again.

The media reports on Cosby focus on the time delay in making the accusations and the settlements in such a way as to question the motives of his accusers.

The media reports on Weinstein seemed to be done in such a way as to establish a time line of a pattern of behavior.

The Cosby saga unfolded in very typical ways and has varied little. Weinstein was condemned immediately. That started changing after a week and it is continuing to change back to the norm.

There are distinct differences here. But why? What, if anything, does it mean or potentially mean?

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Old 10-29-2017, 11:40 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by ~ocean View Post
excellent views kobi Thank You for bringing up the facts. I am very confused as well as concerned about the integrity of the woman who were assaulted. I believe they were subjected to Weinstein's criminal sexual behavior. the confusing part is why did woman give in to his sexual threats ?? I'm saddened that so many woman gave in and didn't fight back ! The woman who he drugged for his own personal demented pleasure sure is reason enough for punishment . I pray to God for peace in this world everyday. For those woman with regrets , I wish them forgiveness of themselves .Again, thanks for the post Kobi .
Rape and sexual assault are wounds in the most intimate place, and humiliating mind fcks, too. The very last thing most women want to do is expose themselves further in the aftermath of such an attack. Especially when the power balance favors their perpetrator so overwhelmingly as it did with Weinstein. Survivors are doubted, hounded and slut shamed. At least one of Trump's accusers endured credible threats on her life and was forced to leave the country. All that would be hard enough when a woman's psyche is at its strongest, but immediately post sexual assault, public shaming would feel exactly like a continuation of the rape. It doesn't confuse or surprise me a bit that women would take the hush money and concentrate on healing themselves. it would surprise and impress me if any of them had found the resources to "fight back" before this moment. Most of Weinstein's victims would have had no way to know that they were the 299th woman he raped, either. Had they come forward they would have done so thinking they were the only one. When all this plays out in the public eye with perfect strangers feeling empowered to pass judgement on your torment... Really, it's just plain unrealistic to expect a woman to go public the way she would if the same man had stolen her wallet, for instance. Anyone who grew from girlhood to womanhood in this culture would be well aware of the double standard and would know she was signing up to fight a very difficult battle. Probably alone. I'm not surprised that so many women needed the safety of numbers to come forward, but I am horrified at the sheer number of women who this criminal has raped. Especially since there are likely plenty more who haven't felt empowered to say "me too".
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Old 10-30-2017, 04:18 AM   #10
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i haven’t gone back and read the posts because they are very triggering for me but i can tell you the sight of that fucker makes me want to vomit.

i am SO over women being subjected to this crap.

Thank you for the dialogue, we need to talk about it, even if it's hard to do so.

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