Butch & Transmen Friendship: Mutual Support

[AtLast]

My hopes are that this thread brings some real communication about how Butches and Transmen as well as Inter-gendered people can better interact as friends and build support networks.

We are often in political spaces together working toward education, important legislative civil rights matters, health care issues and other matters, yet, here, our friendship gets polarized often.

I really want to address why we seem to walk this very unsteady path when some of us are each others closest friends and allies. For me, it gets really hard on the site when I feel like I need to stick up for myself as a butch woman, but know that just a few buzz words might start another gender-war. In some ways, this makes sense because we all come from many backgrounds and experiences- often pain ridden in just trying to be who we are. No matter how we identify.

Everyone is welcome to post thoughts here (this is just not directed at ideas from butches and Transmen or inter-gendered folks).

There is one rule, however- civility. If we can't do this without being civil, I will just ask that the thread be closed. I don't want this to go down the path of self-destruction. I don't want it in the Red Zone as that would be totally counter intuitive to the purpose here.

This is aimed at friendship and communication values and interaction, not pronoun IDENTIFICATION, butch slamming, trans/IG slamming, etc. It is about how we can talk to one another and aid each other in a gender-ignorant society and not draw lines between ourselves.

This isn't about theoretical propositions, it is about friendship and relationship building.

I'm asking that if someone needs clarification, please ask for it before going off on someone (which I hope just doesn't happen here). It isn't always easy to be clear in these matters, so let's give each other the benefit of the doubt before taking issue with each other.

Please leave any personal grudges at the door, this isn’t the place for them.

I'm hopeful.... are you?

[Liam]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

My hopes are that this thread brings some real communication about how Butches and Transmen as well as Inter-gendered people can better interact as friends and build support networks.

We are often in political spaces together working toward education, important legislative civil rights matters, health care issues and other matters, yet, here, our friendship gets polarized often.

I really want to address why we seem to walk this very unsteady path when some of us are each others closest friends and allies. For me, it gets really hard on the site when I feel like I need to stick up for myself as a butch woman, but know that just a few buzz words might start another gender-war. In some ways, this makes sense because we all come from many backgrounds and experiences- often pain ridden in just trying to be who we are. No matter how we identify.

Everyone is welcome to post thoughts here (this is just not directed at ideas from butches and Transmen or inter-gendered folks).

There is one rule, however- civility. If we can't do this without being civil, I will just ask that the thread be closed. I don't want this to go down the path of self-destruction. I don't want it in the Red Zone as that would be totally counter intuitive to the purpose here.

This is aimed at friendship and communication values and interaction, not pronoun IDENTIFICATION, butch slamming, trans/IG slamming, etc. It is about how we can talk to one another and aid each other in a gender-ignorant society and not draw lines between ourselves.

This isn't about theoretical propositions, it is about friendship and relationship building.

I'm asking that if someone needs clarification, please ask for it before going off on someone (which I hope just doesn't happen here). It isn't always easy to be clear in these matters, so let's give each other the benefit of the doubt before taking issue with each other.

Please leave any personal grudges at the door, this isn’t the place for them.

I'm hopeful.... are you?

Great idea, AtLast! I'm hopeful.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Liam

Great idea, AtLast! I'm hopeful.

Thank you, Liam. It dawned on me that so many here might just have a completely different real-time experience as friends and allies that just doesn't get reflected much. Which is so sad. My reality is way far from the experience here and on the old site.

We sit on panels, eat dinner together, try to educate, have brews together, share families with each other, have grown up and graduated high school and college together, talk about fears of a society that hates us all, talk about fears of surgeries and fear about what love will be like, if ENDA will really matter, etc......


Just seems like there is space on the Planet to heal, connect and just be people!

[Sam]

Great idea AtLast.

[Julien]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

My hopes are that this thread brings some real communication about how Butches and Transmen as well as Inter-gendered people can better interact as friends and build support networks.

We are often in political spaces together working toward education, important legislative civil rights matters, health care issues and other matters, yet, here, our friendship gets polarized often.

I really want to address why we seem to walk this very unsteady path when some of us are each others closest friends and allies. For me, it gets really hard on the site when I feel like I need to stick up for myself as a butch woman, but know that just a few buzz words might start another gender-war. In some ways, this makes sense because we all come from many backgrounds and experiences- often pain ridden in just trying to be who we are. No matter how we identify.

Everyone is welcome to post thoughts here (this is just not directed at ideas from butches and Transmen or inter-gendered folks).

There is one rule, however- civility. If we can't do this without being civil, I will just ask that the thread be closed. I don't want this to go down the path of self-destruction. I don't want it in the Red Zone as that would be totally counter intuitive to the purpose here.

This is aimed at friendship and communication values and interaction, not pronoun IDENTIFICATION, butch slamming, trans/IG slamming, etc. It is about how we can talk to one another and aid each other in a gender-ignorant society and not draw lines between ourselves.

This isn't about theoretical propositions, it is about friendship and relationship building.

I'm asking that if someone needs clarification, please ask for it before going off on someone (which I hope just doesn't happen here). It isn't always easy to be clear in these matters, so let's give each other the benefit of the doubt before taking issue with each other.

Please leave any personal grudges at the door, this isn’t the place for them.

I'm hopeful.... are you?

Great idea and a positive step forward. Good for you. I'm with you on this matter. Yes I am hopeful as well.

I think that we all need the space to talk without fear of assumptions about who we are and what our, or should I say my, position is. I don't want to speak for anyone else. Thank you for the forum.

[waxnrope]

Thanks for starting the thread, AtLast. um, I haven't a clue as to what to say though! Should we do introductions, tell our stories, or what. I mean, I am thinking about how I bond face to face with people... say little things, with humor, about myself ... see what response I get and if there's anything forthcoming from the other person. Back and forth, like. Anyway, not sure how you want to do this, so I'll just repeat myself and say thanks for starting this ...

[Corkey]

AtLast, I think this could very well be the start of a good discussion. It is my hope that we all can come to realize we are all the same, human, yes?

[Darth Denkay]

AtLastHome,

Thank you for starting this thread.

There are a number of threads on this site pertaining specifically to IDs, whether it be femme, woman, lesbian, transman, butch, male-identified - I know there are many more. It seems to me that this type of discussion is more prevalent here than on the dash-site, although I may just be noticing it more here. These dialogues are important, for sure. Identities are presumably what brought us to this site in the first place. But I sometimes wonder if more emphasis is placed on them than is necessary, at least across the site as a whole.

On a thread dedicated to IDs of course they will be the focus. On threads not dedicated to them, it seems as though they aren't as important (notice I'm not saying they don't matter but the emphasis, to me, is lower). For instance, I started the Broadway thread. When I read a post, if it's from someone I don't know too well, I don't generally check to see how they identify, other than if I need to check pronoun preference. In that instance, I don't see how ID matters so much.

Another thing that I've been wondering about for a while - how much difference is there really between IDs. Since this thread is specifically targeting butches and transmen I'll focus there. Of course there are differences, but in many cases I don't think they can be qualified. For instance, many butches here identify as women and others don't. We likely share many experiences growing up and coming to embrace our identity, but how do we really differ? Sure, some of us embrace woman, some don't but also don't embrace man, some embrace male but not man, and others embrace man. We all have an inner sense of what identity feels right to us. But if I am dialoguing with a butch woman, in most cases does that distinction matter? Who am I more similar to, a butch woman or a male-identified butch. I have no idea. But I do believe we share many of the same experiences so in many cases I don't think the distinction is necessary.

I am NOT suggesting that IDs aren't important. I am NOT suggesting that it really doesn't matter what pronouns we use - it absolutely does. But we seem so intent on delineating the IDs and not recognizing the potential for friendships, support, camaraderie. We all came to this site, I assume, because we shared an identity, because we found others like us. When did the differences become more important than the similarities?

[AtLast]

When a close butch friend decides to transition- an example of what might be discussed in the thread…..

Sometimes I really think that we don’t look at just the interpersonal side of friendships and transitioning of a close friend and what the ramifications are for our friendship. And if we did, a lot of strife could be avoided.

I have had very close butch friends who struggled in our childhood with really being men and just not having the right body. Due to being born in the early 50’s, there are a lot of things about availability of support, medical and psychological support that differ from today, but, the emotional impact between friends, one identifying as a masculine woman and the other as male probably remains the same.

For me, even though it was clear that my buddies needed to transition to have a more congruent persona, I did feel loss in terms of the fact that they (for a time), needed to move to trans friends pretty much exclusively. Consequently, I felt a little kicked to the curve simply because we stopped doing the things we always shared as buddies. It felt a lot like when a good friend gets involved romantically (and you are not) and they spend almost all of their time with their gf. Haven’t we all gone through this? Much more so for me as a young person. Later in life, this isn’t as true. My friends (as well as myself) make an effort to keep time for friends/buddies even if in the throws of passion!

I think that sometimes these kinds of things can begin to flow over into defensive posturing between butch women and trans friends. That sucks, but it feels human to me. The problem is recognizing what is really going on and talking to each other. To me, it makes sense that even though I get transitioning, the fact remains that I have never felt male or that I am a man.

I have masculine traits and am a butch, but remain a woman. My childhood trans friends certainly understood this and I understood them but, I still believe there is a missing link with the actual internal processes of our gender identity. So, their needing to hang more with other transguys makes sense (especially in terms of being able to talk on a different level about T ,surgeries, etc). I feel this way even with a professional background that brought me more information than just folks outside of queerdom, yet, I don’t have a problem at all with accepting this missing link. Yet, we have a friendship that matters. Friendships do have to be nurtured. Sometimes, I think that not recognizing the missing link really causes some problems that don’t have to happen.

So this is what I am trying to get at in the thread. Our processes and interactions, not to be or not to be…

Note- of course there are differing trans positions/identifications. My personal experience with people close to me just happens to be with FtMs and an inter-gendered cousin. And I am not going to talk from outside of my experience. There are trans masculine butches, for example, and not all butches are female-identified. If these fit for you… bring this up! I can’t speak for anyone else.

Yup, we talk about just about everything else except our human interactions with each other!

[Liam]

When a person stumbles and falls next to me, I don't stop to figure out their gender, I don't ask them how they identify—I give them my hand, and help them up. Labels help us communicate who we are, to each other, they are not necessarily definitive, they are not always binding. Regardless of which label we use to describe ourselves, there is one thing we all have in common—we are all human beings. I am quite tired of divisive discussions; it doesn't feel good to feel isolated or estranged from others, I'm hungry to feel a sense of unity.

[waxnrope]

Thanks both to Darth and AtLast for the comments above.
As a butch who is sometimes woman, sometimes male identified, I'm confused enough enough with my own fluidity to spend a lot of time not stepping on anybody else's toes about how they identify! I just scratch my arse, come into the "room" and want to see how they navigate the rough waters that we all, or MOST of us, have to travel. I'd love nothing more than a butch or trans buddy here and at home (most of my butch friends here are rather an androgynous bunch, or closeted) so I come here for some kindredness.
Anyway, thanks again for this thread. I have some things that I want to say, but my articulation meter just dipped toward the zero mark, so I'll just go listen to music instead!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Liam

When a person stumbles and falls next to me, I don't stop to figure out their gender, I don't ask them how they identify—I give them my hand, and help them up. Labels help us communicate who we are, to each other, they are not necessarily definitive, they are not always binding. Regardless of which label we use to describe ourselves, there is one thing we all have in common—we are all human beings. I am quite tired of divisive discussions; it doesn't feel good to feel isolated or estranged from others, I'm hungry to feel a sense of unity.

Yes! This is so much of what was behind starting the thread- just letting gender identification be as it is for each person and get to unification of our friendships. Try to see all of the sides that get involved as friends. Close friends matter, yet, I know we hiurt each other sometimes, but in this context, I don't think it is about gender at all.

For example, from the context of my last post, I can talk about my own feelings of hurt, but I also know the alienation on the other side from trans friends that confide in me. So, if we can tell each other about these things, our unity is stronger.

[TenderKnight]

AtLast,

Great thread! Thank you for starting it..

A little about my past.. When I found out about Butch people( on a side note, when refering to people on this site as a group, I'm using "people" it saves time and my poor fingers from typing..), I was a little shocked and very thrilled.. I can't tell you how many pictures of k.d. lang I grabbed off the internet and had posted around my room.. This was someone that I could identify with! Then I found a butch/femme site and was like, "holy crap! More poeple that I can Identify with!" I was all about it.. Reading online threads, going into chat, and meeting people locally helped me find and identify who i was and who i am now..

I am thankful for the Butches and Transmen that have posted thier thoughts and feelings for me to read and learn from, either in a good way or a bad way.. I am grateful for the folks that took time out to talk to a baby butch and then a questioning TG Butch and then finally to the transgender person tthat I am now (and have always been)..

With out my friendships and relationships with Butches here and in r/t, my journey could have been MUCH harder.. It's also nice to have people to talk to that get it.. and that you don't have to explain things every other sentance.. They just *get* it..

I started a thread about respecting women's space (and got some flack for using "women" instead of a more inclusive term).. I guess that I am kind of stuck on binary in a lot of ways.. and I am reading what people have been writting and I am learning more about the other side. It is hard for me to relate to some Butches, because they are coming from such a diffrent place then where I am.. I am trying to relearn and process through some of my assumtions and binary thinking.. I just hope that with the support of my Butch brothers and sisters, as well as my trans brothers and sisters, I can continue to grow as a person within this community. I too hope that this thread can be a good starting place.

Disclaimer: I in no way intend to drag anything here that doesn't need to be here.. I refrenced the thread I started as an example of where i just don't get it, or didn't get that the title would irk or offend some people. /Disclaimer

Thank you,
Tony

[atomiczombie]

I have a hard time figuring out why there has been on this site, a seeming juxtaposition and dualism between butches and transguys that is reactionary - like someone is encroaching on someone else's territory. Yes, butches and transguys are different, but that difference doesn't have to mean that there should be a hierarchy or a mutual exclusivity. My queer sisters and brothers are family to me. One of my very best friends is a butch. We understand things about each other that most people don't. But we recognize the differences as well and celebrate those in each other. I have a great respect for butches and their courage to walk in a world that can sometimes be harsh and judgmental, and ignorant. Let's stop the in-fighting and unite to support each other!

[Liam]

So, other than using the correct pronoun, how may I be supportive of everyone here?

[weatherboi]

Hi everybody!!!

I am a very hopeful guy!!!

I joined this site because my current place of residence is not so queer. These sites give me a place to obtain education, my need for inclusion and unity.

I will admit to being protective of the person I am. I have been betrayed and that enters into the equation for me. I tend to hold people at arms length for the sake of emotional safety.

I am very grateful to "get to" read all the different posts from all the many butches and trans folks here!! I consider myself lucky to have this space to turn to. I also consider myself lucky because I have met some really really nice butches and guys that I look forward to meeting in person!!

I think it would be a good idea to talk about situations that come up for us that make us feel we can't create bridges of friendship.

Grant

[Jett]

Interesting quote though from an odd source (forgive me if I don't get it perfectly it's been a while):

"Sometimes I think it should be a rule of war that you have to stand face to face with your enemy and get to know him before you can shoot him."
M*A*S*H, Colonel Potter

I've thought of that quote often in these "gender wars", we're so much more than our IDs. The idea that we could sum up anyone or their ideas by them isn't realistic, they're so personally subjective anyway who'd even know what the mean but to the one owning them. Sure you can tell a little by ID, but like, you can know my ID but it won't tell you that I'm a very compassionate person, don't hold a grudge long or hell, that I love fried peanut butter and banana sandwiches.

I always hate to think based on them anyone wouldn't feel welcome here in these spaces, it's shitty, and I know I've felt that way at times myself. It doesn't feel good to not feel welcome in a community you care about. I think if anybody goes away un-welcomed that's feels to me like a big fail on our part.

I don't know how to fix the shit except on my part to try to be aware of what I say and do. And yeah Atlast, I do have hope... real life I've never had issues with other identities, I just think something (maybe the face to face human factor) gets lost in translation here.

Peace,
Metro

[Andrew, Jr.]

AtomicZombie & Metro,

I agree with what you both posted. I try my best to avoid drama. Sometimes I get caught up with the words or phrases that people say. Or if I post my feelings/opinions I get flamed by the same ones. I am tired. I feel very much silenced and I question if I belong here.

I used to think that this was my community too. I get rejected by society because I am slow. If I ask a question or post my feelings or opinions there is someone to beat me down. It is worse than high school.

I do care about the many people who I do love and who I consider my family. But I am tired. I have a limited short term memory, and long term memory is at zero. I am tired of having to share personal information to every Tom, Dick, and Harry to understand me. When I post that I am not good with words, trust me. When I post I am not computer savvy. Don't ask me to post pics in the gallery. I have no clue as to how too. Make sense? If I smoke a Nub cigar, trust me I am smoking a Nub cigar.

Sorry for my rant. I just have to let it out.

Andrew

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

AtLast,

Great thread! Thank you for starting it..

A little about my past.. When I found out about Butch people( on a side note, when refering to people on this site as a group, I'm using "people" it saves time and my poor fingers from typing..), I was a little shocked and very thrilled.. I can't tell you how many pictures of k.d. lang I grabbed off the internet and had posted around my room.. This was someone that I could identify with! Then I found a butch/femme site and was like, "holy crap! More poeple that I can Identify with!" I was all about it.. Reading online threads, going into chat, and meeting people locally helped me find and identify who i was and who i am now..

I am thankful for the Butches and Transmen that have posted thier thoughts and feelings for me to read and learn from, either in a good way or a bad way.. I am grateful for the folks that took time out to talk to a baby butch and then a questioning TG Butch and then finally to the transgender person tthat I am now (and have always been)..

With out my friendships and relationships with Butches here and in r/t, my journey could have been MUCH harder.. It's also nice to have people to talk to that get it.. and that you don't have to explain things every other sentance.. They just *get* it..

I started a thread about respecting women's space (and got some flack for using "women" instead of a more inclusive term).. I guess that I am kind of stuck on binary in a lot of ways.. and I am reading what people have been writting and I am learning more about the other side. It is hard for me to relate to some Butches, because they are coming from such a diffrent place then where I am.. I am trying to relearn and process through some of my assumtions and binary thinking.. I just hope that with the support of my Butch brothers and sisters, as well as my trans brothers and sisters, I can continue to grow as a person within this community. I too hope that this thread can be a good starting place.

Disclaimer: I in no way intend to drag anything here that doesn't need to be here.. I refrenced the thread I started as an example of where i just don't get it, or didn't get that the title would irk or offend some people. /Disclaimer

Thank you,
Tony

WOW, you and have closely related histories with our butch identity! But, I was much older before I developed a personal comfort zone. Dammit! And my history with transpeople is different than most here. Which is why I sometimes have thought, WTF? A friend pointed out to me that I have been in a state and geographical too long that trans is just part of everyday life. Plus, there has been a Tran gendered person around me or related to my relationships for 40 years, now. Not so for many people. However, I feel like my experiences is limited in many ways because it really is a different world evolving around gender these days.

I remember the woman's space thread and was glad you started it, but knew some flack would fly. But, also, that a whole lot of positive could come along, too.

Yup, a good starting place for you! Can't promise we won't get tangled up somewhere, but, so far, so good! I know that some folks have just had negative experiences on both sides (or should I say within all of the sides!), so, they will have to see how it goes before posting anything.

I have been taken to task (outside of the site, as in real-time people) by some female-identified butches because I want to talk about this stuff. They see me as a traitor. These are not really friends to me, more like acquaintances, so, I'm just letting that go. Yup, the ignorance factor rides again! But, I can't change them.

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I have a hard time figuring out why there has been on this site, a seeming juxtaposition and dualism between butches and transguys that is reactionary - like someone is encroaching on someone else's territory. Yes, butches and transguys are different, but that difference doesn't have to mean that there should be a hierarchy or a mutual exclusivity. My queer sisters and brothers are family to me. One of my very best friends is a butch. We understand things about each other that most people don't. But we recognize the differences as well and celebrate those in each other. I have a great respect for butches and their courage to walk in a world that can sometimes be harsh and judgmental, and ignorant. Let's stop the in-fighting and unite to support each other!

atomiczombie-

Thank you so much for this. The part I underlined is so much at the center of how I hope this conversation goes. I don't get the dualism either. Sure, we can all have different political and philosophical views, and thoughts about gender (in and of itself), but I don't want to waste time fighting. I want unity, too. Not that we can't and won't disagree, but I'd much rather have disagreement and walk away with knowing someone better due to it.

Yes, let's celebrate!



Sometimes, I think that

[princessbelle]

If i may......

Just wanted to pop my femme head in here, since AtLast invited everyone (thanks for that)....

I want to just say how wonderful this thread is to read and how happy I am to see it. In my life as a femme, I have wittnessed the sometimes anamosity that can go on. It has always saddened me.

What a wonderful idea, Atlast, to bring the positive, upbeat, informative and "shaking hands" comradery that this has started.

*curtsies to all here and

Thank you for the breath of fresh air and sunlight that leads our community into strength and togetherness and overpowers the negative and bias who's shadows grow larger in the dark.