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Old 02-17-2015, 06:27 PM   #61
fulltimefaking
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I don't know if this is the right place to put this... but I would love to read about some butches experiences of dysphoria.

I'm 22 years old. I have been with girls since I was 14 and out of closet since then so that part is not a problem for me. I dressed and expressed myself rather feminine (with very little passion for it I can tell) until one year ago, when I started to buy "mens clothes". In the begin wearing "mens clothes" felt like being high, like I finally did something that was truly me. I cut my hair and so on.

Later last spring I started to be annoyed by my breast, mainly when I saw them in the mirror, but then it accelerated. Started to lie awake late at night and thinking of how it would be to have flat chest instead and longing for that. Longing in a really hurtful way. And I started to wish I would just wake up and look more like a guy. This is still going on (my attempts to suppress these feelings hasn't succeeded...) Sometimes I feel so disconnected from myself and my body. It is like that I'm some moments can get into some place where me having flat chest is real, and to get back to reality after that hurts so bad. I feel so much panic sometimes, when I realize there is no escape from this, from my body or from society. I feel like I don't want people to look at me, I can't stand anymore that they look at my body.
These feelings of panic worries me partly because I have a history of depression and self harming... I guess I am afraid that I will fall back

I have been trying to seek "explanations" for these feelings like, maybe I am a guy? (I know this is a super binary way of thinking). But I feel comfortable with female pronouns and most of the time with identifying as female. No other trans identities that I've read about makes sense for me either. I just feel like I am a masculine person, even if I don't now exactly what I mean when I say that.

I feel to scared to talk about this with anyone I know. I have mentioned this to my best friend but took it all back later, and said I just think it was a phase (lol). Actually I feel very lonely and disconnected from everything right now. I used to hang out a lot in feminist groups/enviorments, but lately I have just escaped all of that, doesn't feel like it is room for me there.

So, yeah, if someone would like to share it would be great to hear from some butches about your experience on dysphoria and how you are dealing with it.
I got to find a way to deal with this cause I won't be able to afford top surgery for probably another decade and someone like me would never pass the tests swedish doctors do before they provide free top surgery

Also, sorry if my english is not good, it is not my first language.
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Old 02-17-2015, 09:23 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fulltimefaking View Post
I don't know if this is the right place to put this... but I would love to read about some butches experiences of dysphoria.

I'm 22 years old. I have been with girls since I was 14 and out of closet since then so that part is not a problem for me. I dressed and expressed myself rather feminine (with very little passion for it I can tell) until one year ago, when I started to buy "mens clothes". In the begin wearing "mens clothes" felt like being high, like I finally did something that was truly me. I cut my hair and so on.

Later last spring I started to be annoyed by my breast, mainly when I saw them in the mirror, but then it accelerated. Started to lie awake late at night and thinking of how it would be to have flat chest instead and longing for that. Longing in a really hurtful way. And I started to wish I would just wake up and look more like a guy. This is still going on (my attempts to suppress these feelings hasn't succeeded...) Sometimes I feel so disconnected from myself and my body. It is like that I'm some moments can get into some place where me having flat chest is real, and to get back to reality after that hurts so bad. I feel so much panic sometimes, when I realize there is no escape from this, from my body or from society. I feel like I don't want people to look at me, I can't stand anymore that they look at my body.
These feelings of panic worries me partly because I have a history of depression and self harming... I guess I am afraid that I will fall back

I have been trying to seek "explanations" for these feelings like, maybe I am a guy? (I know this is a super binary way of thinking). But I feel comfortable with female pronouns and most of the time with identifying as female. No other trans identities that I've read about makes sense for me either. I just feel like I am a masculine person, even if I don't now exactly what I mean when I say that.

I feel to scared to talk about this with anyone I know. I have mentioned this to my best friend but took it all back later, and said I just think it was a phase (lol). Actually I feel very lonely and disconnected from everything right now. I used to hang out a lot in feminist groups/enviorments, but lately I have just escaped all of that, doesn't feel like it is room for me there.

So, yeah, if someone would like to share it would be great to hear from some butches about your experience on dysphoria and how you are dealing with it.
I got to find a way to deal with this cause I won't be able to afford top surgery for probably another decade and someone like me would never pass the tests swedish doctors do before they provide free top surgery

Also, sorry if my english is not good, it is not my first language.
There are definitely a number of butches who feel dysphoric about their chest, but you may want to consider that perhaps when it comes to your sex, you would identify as non-binary (betweeen male and female) or gender neutral (neither male nor female), and that this is what you are bumping up against, rather than it coming solely from a place of being (a) butch. One can be butch and still be something other than female or woman identified. You are by far not the only person who feels this way. I will PM you a link to a forum that you can check out if you don't get all your questions answered here.

You are not alone, my friend!
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Old 02-17-2015, 09:37 PM   #63
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I am completely comfortable as female and woman but also would prefer a flat chest and still hope to do something about that in the future. There are other butches that feel that way too. However you identify in terms of your gender and feel about your body, either now or in the future, just know that you are not alone and there is no one way to be female, male or any other expression. Best wishes.
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Old 02-17-2015, 09:43 PM   #64
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fulltimefaking,

Here is a thread you might want to read:

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...ead.php?t=6999
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Old 02-17-2015, 10:39 PM   #65
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fulltimefaking,
You are not and never alone in how you feel. There are plenty of us butches out there that have gone through what you're dealing with. I am a female, woman identified lesbian butch, but I don't really care for my breasts, they to me are just things that make me look more like a girl more than I want to. When I worked in physical jobs, they'd get in the way of things I had to do. I always wanted to have smaller breasts that wouldn't stick out so much. Over the years, I've just learned to deal with it by accepting the fact that I have them and they are a part of my body whether I like it or not. I've never wanted Top Surgery, although there are others that have wanted that and did it.
However you feel is just that, how you feel about YOU. Allow yourself to go through your emotions, feelings and logic to see where you can find some kind of comfort. have you thought about binding? That is a way some of us have dealt with our breasts and some still do. There are bras out there you can get that are more flattening for you to a degree. I'm sure there's a thread around here someplace that talks about butches and binding. Try looking in the Butch Forum topics. There's tons of information there other than just that as well. Hang in there and don't ever be afraid to reach out to one of us here on the planet to talk to along with lots of others here as well. Come into chat sometime and meet a few of us and enjoy your stay here.
As Dapper and Bulldog have responded, they are some really great folks to talk to. Don't hesitate to initiate friendships on the site. You belong here just as much as we do. I'm glad you found us. Welcome to the Planet by the way.
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Old 02-17-2015, 10:48 PM   #66
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Hi. Be you, be the best you you can be. Be as nonconforming queer butch human being you can be. Welcome to the Planet, the place for being.
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Old 02-18-2015, 08:04 PM   #67
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Hey Fulltimefaking,
I found a link to the Frog Bra thread Dapper started; check that out and see if you'd be interested in using that for while til you figure things out.

FROG BRA LINK
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Old 02-19-2015, 02:02 PM   #68
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Thanks to all of you for your answers! It means a lot to me to know that you have read what I wrote and to get your support and perspectives. When I had read your answers yesterday I cried cause I felt such a relief that I finally had expressed these feelings of dysphoria in words (beyond very confused diary notes) but also because all of this feels very scary. I feel terrified of not knowing where these feelings will take me. Spent so much time in my life trying to be the girl people expect me to be, I don't have a fucking clue what I am going to find if I start to truly listen to myself.

I do use a binder almost daily nowadays, but it is some sort of light variant that honestly doesn't help so much (my breasts are pretty big). I have recently ordered a new one from the US which I hope will do a better job
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Old 02-19-2015, 02:30 PM   #69
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Hey Fulltime,
Just be in the place you are for now, one day at a time, it's a step by step daily process to go in a direction of YOUR OWN DAILY JOURNEY. Be YOU and the BEST YOU , you can be, one day at a time. Keep posting and reading threads, make friends, come to chat and talk. Hang out with us, and make yourself right at home with the rest of us. Not all of us here have finished our own journey, some of us are still in that process. This is a safe place for all of us and the Admins keep it that way. Don't be shy, it's ok to ask questions/have discussions in threads, talk to us, and add friends to your list. Send messages to us if you need one on one talk. Someone will respond to you as soon as they are able. You're now a part of this family here, so just make yourself right at home, if you wish to.
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Old 05-03-2015, 11:42 AM   #70
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I forwarded this site to my Butch as she is currently on a journey to decide if she is more feminine or masculine of center. She needs to have support of other Butches to help her I think. So, my question follows:

Is it common for Butch to be a life long journey along the spectrum? By this I mean, is it common for you to question yourself if you are Butch enough, how you present, how you act, how Femmes see you? I have been with mine for over a decade now and it has been only lately that she is questioning herself excessively. I don't care HOW she presents personally, I love her. Is it harder for older Butches? We are in our 40's.
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Old 05-03-2015, 02:13 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Femminator View Post
I forwarded this site to my Butch as she is currently on a journey to decide if she is more feminine or masculine of center. She needs to have support of other Butches to help her I think. So, my question follows:

Is it common for Butch to be a life long journey along the spectrum? By this I mean, is it common for you to question yourself if you are Butch enough, how you present, how you act, how Femmes see you? I have been with mine for over a decade now and it has been only lately that she is questioning herself excessively. I don't care HOW she presents personally, I love her. Is it harder for older Butches? We are in our 40's.
I don't think I ever actually had that life long journey along the spectrum of finding myself and what kind of butch I am. I am just me and I happen to accept and be ok with my being female, a woman, and masculine all at the same time. For me, the questions of being butch enough were usually coming from someone else questioning MY butchness, and with that I mean, probably only about 2 or 3 other male Identified butches questioned it. It was a posturing thing that I quickly diffused. I wonder if it is only lately that she is feeling some sorta age thing within herself that makes her excessively question herself? Like a midlife thing? Kinda sounds like it to me maybe.
As far as harder for older butches to date? I think that the older we get that there are less avenues to find women to date since we no longer go to the same hangouts like the bars as we might have when we were much younger, therefore leaving a tiny dating pool of friends making suggestions or finding meetup groups to create a larger pool of options when we are older single butches. Me, I just find it hard to meet people since I don't know anyone at all around where I live and there are no gay people here. Even when I lived in Austin, I found it hard to find groups that were older unless someone created a meetup.com group for lesbians in my area that got together to make friends and then I find that there's the clique thing still going on. I hate that crap. Anywho, I'd be interested in speaking to your gf about what she's going through and why she's questioning herself so much and to tell her my own stories I have and my own issues , that sorta thing, so she knows she probably not alone in how or what she is going through. Tell her to contact me when she decides to come onto the planet, to hit me up with a message so I know it's her. We can always use another butch around here ya know. LOL I hope she signs on and visits often.
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Old 05-03-2015, 04:51 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Femminator View Post
I forwarded this site to my Butch as she is currently on a journey to decide if she is more feminine or masculine of center. She needs to have support of other Butches to help her I think. So, my question follows:

Is it common for Butch to be a life long journey along the spectrum? By this I mean, is it common for you to question yourself if you are Butch enough, how you present, how you act, how Femmes see you? I have been with mine for over a decade now and it has been only lately that she is questioning herself excessively. I don't care HOW she presents personally, I love her. Is it harder for older Butches? We are in our 40's.
I don't know if it is common but I have questioned if I am butch enough at some moments in time and i have also questioned if i was too butch. Mostly it was when I was younger and it was usually in response to someone else's questions or remarks about my butchness.

I had a partner who thought I was less butch later in the relationship than I was initially. I didn't see it, nor did I agree with her assessment, but she was certainly entitled to her opinion. I didn't feel less butch. But one cannot change another's perception. I questioned myself because of what she said, but I didn't feel any change so I was able to let it go. I don't like to dismiss other people's feelings but sometimes their feelings are based on something that really has nothing to do with you, even though they are looking at you as the cause of their dissatisfaction. In this case the partner ended up leaving me for a man, so I guess compared to a man I didn't present masculine enough. And that's fine with me.

I have also had a partner who thought I could/should tone down my masculinity. I didn't even get how that could even be possible for me to do. I feel like if you are not comfortable with your partner's gender presentation perhaps you need a different partner. It would probably be easier than trying to get someone to change who they are. That never ends well for anyone.

But I don't think I can remember just waking up in the morning, yawning, stretching, and then questioning my butchness or lack there of. I am the same butch I always was. I did however question how I acted, how I presented at times. This was an issue for me as I struggled to live comfortably as a masculine woman and as a feminist. My relationship with masculinity has always been difficult. I don't trust male and by extension masculine. We do live in a patriarchy so being suspicious of men/male/masculine just comes with the territory for many women. Masculinity comes with a certain amount of privilege even couched in a female package. Albeit there are challenges that a masculine woman faces daily as well as oppression for being female, gay and masculine presenting, but there is also privilege for the masculine part. Which is pretty confusing because there is also aggression and hostility for the masculine part because it is in a female package. It's enough to make your head spin.

But I did at times try to reign in my masculine side because of how I saw masculinity. It didn't work very well. I always ended up not feeling good about trying to deny who I was. I did finally come to terms with myself as a masculine female. Interestingly enough though, I never tried to encourage myself to stretch for more masculinity. It wouldn't have mattered though, it would never work out comfortably either way. I don't think one can force oneself to be more or less masculine or more or less feminine than one is. So if your butch is trying to decide if she is more feminine or masculine of center (what is center by the way? androgyny?) perhaps it would help her to just sit with her feelings and see who she is when she is all alone with herself.

Anyway I think any insecurity I feel regarding being butch comes from other people not from me. Inside me I am butch and comfortable with it. Outside interference causes questioning for me. Not so much anymore but I had to work it all out first before I was able to not respond to other's judgments. Perhaps she just needs to get to that point where she is comfortable in her skin and other people can't rock her with comments and judgments. Or do you think she is questioning whether she feels like she is butch or not? Because that is something different.
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Old 05-03-2015, 06:14 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Femminator View Post
I forwarded this site to my Butch as she is currently on a journey to decide if she is more feminine or masculine of center. She needs to have support of other Butches to help her I think. So, my question follows:

Is it common for Butch to be a life long journey along the spectrum? By this I mean, is it common for you to question yourself if you are Butch enough, how you present, how you act, how Femmes see you? I have been with mine for over a decade now and it has been only lately that she is questioning herself excessively. I don't care HOW she presents personally, I love her. Is it harder for older Butches? We are in our 40's.
I think it is pretty common for butches to question these things, but I have really only seen that when a person first realizes they are butch, not a decade(s) later. Or maybe I misunderstood and she only more recently realized that butch was her gender?
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Old 05-03-2015, 06:18 PM   #74
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Thank you for the offer Tru, I really appreciate it.

Miss Tick, She knows she is Butch and not TG . So that is not in question. It's questioning what is Butch and how she wants to present(I think).

To be honest with both of you, she was raised by a very conservative religious family and she struggled to realize she was Butch in the first place and not TG. She never knew anyone gay until her 20's. She says she would like to be 'more' Butch and present more so, but is having difficulty with sorting out the social messages and stigma involved with it. She works at a college and there are all sorts of out Butches there and she says she is not always brave enough to dress like she wants to(more Butch, more masculine clothing, says the clothes she wears sometimes feel girly to her).

When we first started to date, she had longer hair(all cut off now) and was more what I would say is a Soft Butch, but as time has gone by she has indicated that she is and was always less comfortable as that and wants to be more Hard Butch. Fine by me, Butches float my boat, all of them! We have been together for a decade so I am for the long haul, still love her and appreciate her being any type of Butch. She tells me a lot that she hears that voice in her head that tells her she is 'too boyish' when she dresses the way she wants to, and I am pretty sure it comes from how she grew up. So, I think it's more of a growing into herself finally after being what society wanted her to be. Maybe accepting herself finally. She struggled with addiction for years and is 13 years clean and sober this year, so perhaps it's just that she never really took time to figure out what type of Butch she was in the first place. Much less having any type of mentor in it. Also, Tru, maybe you are right, age sometimes makes us question where we are in life and who we want to be.

I have encouraged her to hit this site anyhow and hope she will take me up on it. I think it would be awesome for her to talk to some other Butches.
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Old 05-03-2015, 07:07 PM   #75
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I think it is pretty common for butches to question these things, but I have really only seen that when a person first realizes they are butch, not a decade(s) later. Or maybe I misunderstood and she only more recently realized that butch was her gender?
She had always thought till pretty recent that being Butch was a way of dressing and such, not seeing it as an actual gender in and of itself. She has many friends in gender studies at the college she works for and I think this also has opened up a new way of thinking for her as she talks to them and sees herself as the gender of Butch and not just a lesbian with butch tendencies(if this makes sense.)
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Old 05-03-2015, 08:23 PM   #76
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Miss Tick, She knows she is Butch and not TG . So that is not in question. It's questioning what is Butch and how she wants to present(I think).
I didn't know I was asking or even talking about TG. That wasn't even on my mind. I guess I wasn't very clear. Sorry.

If she does come here tell her to pm me if she would like. I would be glad to chat back and forth a bit on the subject. Sometimes things are clearer when there is an exchange with someone instead of just posting my thoughts.

Let's hope so anyway cause clearly I did a piss poor job this go round.
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Old 05-03-2015, 08:28 PM   #77
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and sees herself as the gender of Butch and not just a lesbian with butch tendencies(if this makes sense.)
Well I suppose technically that could be considered TG seeing oneself as a third gender I mean...
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Old 05-03-2015, 09:24 PM   #78
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I forwarded this site to my Butch as she is currently on a journey to decide if she is more feminine or masculine of center. She needs to have support of other Butches to help her I think. So, my question follows:

Is it common for Butch to be a life long journey along the spectrum? By this I mean, is it common for you to question yourself if you are Butch enough, how you present, how you act, how Femmes see you? I have been with mine for over a decade now and it has been only lately that she is questioning herself excessively. I don't care HOW she presents personally, I love her. Is it harder for older Butches? We are in our 40's.
--------
From my perspective, it's not so much of a question of "am I butch enough" but more of am I presenting my authentic self to the world. It's difficult because gender norms and expression - thus labeling is rooted in our socially constructed notions of what is butch and what is femme. I find that in our culture (US) we are so fascinated by how woman portray themselves whereas when I was in Germany, it was less of an issue/fascination.

I don't think I have ever compared myself to some invisible butch measuring stick but I have found that some femmes that I have been with do compare me to exes with regard to butchness. So I guess it's been more of how I am perceived in the world. Some would consider me "soft" butch. Whatever that means, I'm not sure but if that's what they need to label me as, by all means. What matters is not to lose yourself in the process. It sounds like she has some great love and support from you to help prevent that from happening.

Was her questioning herself spurred by a conversation she had with someone or an event?

I'm sure the forum would welcome her with open arms if she ever had questions or needed someone to vent/talk to...

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Old 05-04-2015, 05:44 AM   #79
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She tells me a lot that she hears that voice in her head that tells her she is 'too boyish' when she dresses the way she wants to, and I am pretty sure it comes from how she grew up. So, I think it's more of a growing into herself finally after being what society wanted her to be. Maybe accepting herself finally. She struggled with addiction for years and is 13 years clean and sober this year, so perhaps it's just that she never really took time to figure out what type of Butch she was in the first place. Much less having any type of mentor in it. Also, Tru, maybe you are right, age sometimes makes us question where we are in life and who we want to be.
From everything you have said, this seems spot on to me. All of these variables/pieces make sense as to why it would be now and not before.
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Are you educated or indoctrinated?
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Old 05-04-2015, 09:54 AM   #80
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Femminator,

I think all the questions you are asking for her and all the questions she is asking for herself can come at any time during one's development when the environment opens up the possibility and support to explore and this can be for many different things.

I was in my 60's when I had a similar awakening as your partner. I am still on my journay and have different feelings, thoughts and desires regarding my gender identification all the time.

I think having a supportive person in her life and in your life will be a home run. glad you found us. I hope she feels that we are a place for her as well.
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