2020 Presidential Election

[Martina]

The Mexican Countries story was in the New York Times, LA Times, The Post, covered by CNN, MSNBC and probably every US news outlet. *SMH*

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

BTW, is watching Fox News, or recognising your oblique references to Fox News, your standard for marking an intelligent well-informed commentator?
Yikes.

[C0LLETTE]

Originally Posted by Martina

Without a doubt, and speaking the truth is valuable. But using history as an excuse to talk trash about an entire group of people is, well, trashy.

Hell, Canada has a pretty dismal history re its Native Peoples. I don't call out the Canadian people with glee as Collette is wont to do re Americans. (And Collette, DON'T ask me to document. Good God. I've seen you demand that someone tell you where you said something when it was on the previous page.) Collette has said about a thousand rude things about Americans. More. Whatever.

Gee Whizz you get more Trumpian by the post...There were billions of people at the inauguration..."Collette has said about a thousand rude things about Americans. More." You even have his flair for deflection.

[charley]

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

Gee Whizz you get more Trumpian by the post...There were billions of people at the inauguration..."Collette has said about a thousand rude things about Americans. More." You even have his flair for deflection.

calling Martina "Trumpian" is an ad hominem attack...

[C0LLETTE]

but I just gave you an example of her "Trumpianism".

[kittygrrl]

Collette I think Martina actually wants to have a civil discussion about issues...she loves her country even if it's flawed. I don't happen to agree with her but i try to understand her point of view. I don't follow this thread very closing but exchanging ideas is more important then blasting someone for their flawed perceptions..if you want to change minds you don't do it by attacking what they believe currently..i'm learning, you listen

[MsTinkerbelly]

Originally Posted by kittygrrl

Collette I think Martina actually wants to have a civil discussion about issues...she loves her country even if it's flawed. I don't happen to agree with her but i try to understand her point of view. I don't follow this thread very closing but exchanging ideas is more important then blasting someone for their flawed perceptions..if you want to change minds you don't do it by attacking what they believe currently..i'm learning, you listen

I have to disagree here.

From the beginning of this thread, anyone who has not declared Bernie as their personal savior has been hit with reason after reason why we are wrong, and don’t want liberty and justice for all. Okay, paraphrasing to be sure, dramatic at its best.

Even I was referred to as “trashy”, (see above) like all people who judge the crimes of this country by the things that happened in the past. The past? WTF, how about within the last 20 years!!! Words have meaning, and i’m Fucking tired of having pot shots taken at me for having an opinion.

I told Charley once that as a Canadian they had no right to an opinion. I have been embarrassed every since! We are the only 1st world country that knows next to nothing about the politics of our neighbors; everyone else study’s our politics and Constitution in school!

Can we all get back to the Presidential 2020 race? Can we try? Is all of this arguing and name calling doing anyone any good?

I pledge to get back on topic, can anyone else?

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Martina

Without a doubt, and speaking the truth is valuable. But using history as an excuse to talk trash about an entire group of people is, well, trashy.

I was referring to Collette who talks trash about Dems, particular politicians, and our process in general. She used to barely conceal her contempt for Butch femme identities. I've never understood why she wants to hang out here since she has so little respect for us.

[charley]

Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly

...

I told Charley once that as a Canadian they had no right to an opinion. I have been embarrassed every since!

...

Thank you

[cathexis]

Originally Posted by Martina

Without a doubt, and speaking the truth is valuable. But using history as an excuse to talk trash about an entire group of people is, well, trashy.

Hell, Canada has a pretty dismal history re its Native Peoples. I don't call out the Canadian people with glee as Collette is wont to do re Americans. (And Collette, DON'T ask me to document. Good God. I've seen you demand that someone tell you where you said something when it was on the previous page.) Collette has said about a thousand rude things about Americans. More. Whatever.

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

Why stop being rude and petty now?

BTW, is watching Fox News, or recognising your oblique references to Fox News, your standard for marking an intelligent well-informed commentator?
Yikes.

Just have a couple of observations to make here.

Martina- we are in a glass house throwing stones. The US Western Expansion was much more brutal to Native Peoples than Canada's. We continue to break treaties, provide healthcare that would be substandard in 3rd world countries, steal land for Capitalist oil pipelines at will, gave Smallpox infected blankets to the Sioux, killed off the Plain's Native food source for sport (read spite) among other atrocities.
The Canadian Western Expansion was far less violent and bloody, yes, land was stolen and people displaced, but as I recall reading, it was not as atrocious as the US.

C0LLETTE- It is common practice for one side of a political position to read/listen to the propaganda of the opposing side to learn their ideologies, tactics, weapons and so forth in order to mount a more effective offense/defense. I frequently listened to Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, and read "Alt-Right" websites to get a good idea what the Right was planning. That knowledge makes for a better informed and prepared Leftist. These precepts go back to Sun Tzu in The Art of War. Making use of all intelligence available makes for better decisions. Martina's use of Fox News sources was very prudent.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Originally Posted by cathexis

Just have a couple of observations to make here.

Martina- we are in a glass house throwing stones. The US Western Expansion was much more brutal to Native Peoples than Canada's. We continue to break treaties, provide healthcare that would be substandard in 3rd world countries, steal land for Capitalist oil pipelines at will, gave Smallpox infected blankets to the Sioux, killed off the Plain's Native food source for sport (read spite) among other atrocities.
The Canadian Western Expansion was far less violent and bloody, yes, land was stolen and people displaced, but as I recall reading, it was not as atrocious as the US.

C0LLETTE- It is common practice for one side of a political position to read/listen to the propaganda of the opposing side to learn their ideologies, tactics, weapons and so forth in order to mount a more effective offense/defense. I frequently listened to Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, and read "Alt-Right" websites to get a good idea what the Right was planning. That knowledge makes for a better informed and prepared Leftist. These precepts go back to Sun Tzu in The Art of War. Making use of all intelligence available makes for better decisions. Martina's use of Fox News sources was very prudent.

Despite wanting to hurl something through the TV every time we watch, we make it a point to watch at least one broadcast of Foxnews everyday. Ugg

[Medusa]

Martina and Collette-

You both have been told a number of times to ignore each other and yet here we are yet again with multiple reported posts and a shit show.

I have received more reports than I care to count this week about the level (or lack thereof) of adult communication in this thread and I’m to the point that I’m ready to shut this thread down or outright ban all political discussion because wrangling people and constantly asking people to be respectful is wearing the Mod team out.

Besides, it’s toxicAF and I’m just not interested in repeating myself over and over.

But here’s what I’m going to say instead: It is literally the SAME FEW PEOPLE getting reported over and over and over and rather than shut discussion down, I’m just going to put those few people on lengthy time-outs.

And when I say lengthy, I mean enough time away from this space that you’ll either learn to respect the people and discussions here or you’ll find other people to play out your rage on.

There will be no further warnings. No further discussion. No further wasting of my time or the time of the other Mods.

We are D-O-N-E with disrespectful behavior, raging at one another, and making a toilet out of this or any other thread.

Play nice or get the fuck out.


Angie

[FireSignFemme]

Timed out just from this thread or from all of BFP until one's entire sentance has been served?

[MsTinkerbelly]

Originally Posted by FireSignFemme

Timed out just from this thread or from all of BFP until one's entire sentance has been served?

When you are timed out you are gonzo from everything.

I have shown my ass numerous times, and I think my longest time out was 6 months. It is horrible to lose community for 6 months....

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

I am concerned about Russia. Whether or not people are currently feeling the anti-mainstream heat, Russia will make sure sentiments like these grow legs.

Chapo Traphouse stated multiple times that interest in the Russia investigation was a litmus test for who NOT to support among the Dem candidates.

It's like they are Russian Meddling deniers, despite extensive proof that the Russians used them last time.

This will make just make the left a better weapon.

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

NBC News: Russia's propaganda machine discovers 2020 Democratic candidate Tulsi Gabbard, by Robert Windrem and Ben Popken, Feb. 2, 2019, 6:03 AM CST

The Russian propaganda machine that tried to influence the 2016 U.S. election is now promoting the presidential aspirations of a controversial Hawaii Democrat who earlier this month declared her intention to run for president in 2020.

An NBC News analysis of the main English-language news sites employed by Russia in its 2016 election meddling shows Rep. Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii, who is set to make her formal announcement Saturday, has become a favorite of the sites Moscow used when it interfered in 2016.

Russia-deniers on both right and left dismiss these concerns with "they're not doing anything we don't do" and that's true.

Information warfare has always existed and exists on all levels-- at work, in entertainment, in advertising, and in the official explanations of our own government on every topic.

Possibly the hysteria over information warfare is the MSM (note the source, NBC News)/centrist way of reviving Russia as an enemy now that terrorism is becoming less effective, so they can maintain the corporatist system, which is in itself yet some more information warfare.

"Beating Russia" as an agenda will be a lot cheaper than "saving the planet."

The problem i have with information warfare is it is so asymmetrical. It is the powerful against the weak on every level, and one side is not at all equipped for it.

Russia efforts to reach Bernie Sanders supporters more than was known, researcher says - The Washington Post

Sanders told Vermont Public Radio last year that one of his campaign workers figured out what was going on, alerted the Clinton campaign and told them, “I think these guys are Russians.”

Only recently, with the latest analysis of Twitter data, has the extent of the Russian disinformation campaign been documented on that social media platform.

A pair of Clemson University researchers, at the request of The Washington Post, examined English-language tweets identified as coming from Russia, many of which were designed to influence the election. It is impossible to say how many were targeted at Sanders supporters because many don’t include his name. Some 9,000 of the Russian tweets used the word “Bernie,” which were “liked” 59,281 times and retweeted 61,804 times.

But that was only one element of the Russian effort to target Sanders supporters, the researchers said. Many thousands of other tweets, with no direct reference to Sanders, were also designed to appeal to his backers, urging them to do anything but vote for Clinton in the general election.

“I think there is no question that Sanders was central to their strategy. He was clearly used as a mechanism to decrease voter turnout for Hillary Clinton,” said one of the Clemson researchers, Darren Linvill, associate professor of communications. The tweets examined in the new analysis “give us a much clearer understanding of the tactics they were using. It was certainly a higher volume than people thought.”

The effort to promote Sanders as a way to influence the U.S. election began shortly after he declared his candidacy in spring 2015, according to Mueller’s indictment of the Russians. Russia’s aim was to defeat or weaken Clinton, who had angered Russian President Vladimir Putin when she had been secretary of state.

One reason that Sanders was on Russia’s radar has been little noted: he, like Trump, opposed trade deals such as the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Russian President Vladimir Putin had been critical of the TPP, saying it was secretive and “hardly facilitates sustainable development of Asia Pacific.”

During the primaries, Sanders gave at least three interviews to a Russia-controlled television network, RT, in which his trade stance was highlighted. The network in February 2016 criticized MSNBC for breaking away from Sanders after he said he was “helping to lead the opposition to the Trans-Pacific Partnership.” The network posted a story headlined, “Bernie Sanders 'censored' by MSNBC while criticizing trade deal.”

This bothers me because i am starting to see anti-Bernie sentiment from people i never would have suspected. People who i would have expected to be anti-centrist. People like DeAnne Smith-- white, queer, vegan (lol)-- people i would assume to be a natural fit for the DSA. People i would have expected to be Hillary nose-holders (although DeAnne Smith is Canadian, i know.)

I feel like a lot of the anti-Bernie sentiment is about the stridence and aggression of his "followers," post-nomination and post-election.

But what we're seeing is that most of them were not real people. I mean, my colleague's husband and my high school bgf were two of the most obnoxious, and 100% real, but i think the rhetoric they were consuming was modeling that rage to them, making them believe this was what Bernie supporters were supposed to be like. And that rhetoric was 100% manufactured, for 100% evil purposes, and we mostly did not know.

And i think a lot of people don't even see Bernie when they think about him-- they see Bernie's most toxic followers, who never existed.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

I like that Bernie announced upon the heels of Schultz trying to blackmail the Dems over nominating him-- bc i, too, am a troll.

Now we are going to get to see who moves to the center to placate Schultz.

And any Dems who want to give Schultz the finger have only 1 way to do it: get behind Bernie. Schultz said specifically who he was most worried about.

ALSO

i like that Russia pushed his narrative to spoil Hillary/help Trump last cycle-- bc now all of their trollery bites them in the ass. Bernie's message is very visible and the Russians helped. Now their tactics become our asset.

It's beautiful.

I take this back lol

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

I listened to Chapo Traphouse this morning and the first thing they did was roundly mock Julian Castro for supporting meritocracy with his "Brain power is currency" remarks.

Then, Amber A'Lee Frost read her article "It's Bernie, Bitch" out loud, verbatim.

The article basically declares that if the Democrats do not nominate Bernie it is going to be 2016 all over again.

Anti-Trump forces will splinter into capitalist Dems, socialist Dems, and disenchanted Republicans, and Trump's 30% will be enough to beat all three.

I'm not mad, i'm terrified. i'm not interested in fighting this, i want the rest of ya'll to just do as Ms. Frost says bc i'm still (as mentioned in the OP) too traumatized from #NeverHillary to go through it again.

Free college and Medicare for All are still free college and Medicare for All whether or not you're led at the point of a gun.

As a bonus we would also get President Bernie.

But not this

[BullDog]

There's plenty of obnoxious real Bernie followers and not fake bots drummed by the Russians. The Bros and others are real. Sanders never spoke up against them - only one of the many things I don't like about him.

I think Sanders would lose in a huge wipeout. I don't think his following is as strong as it was the last time around and he didn't have near enough to win the last time either. Many people I know who were followers of his before are quite disenchanted with him.

Of course, there are still the Bernie faithful and you won't convince them otherwise that Sanders isn't the answer. I definitely don't even bother trying.

We'll see.

[Martina]

My toxicity has nothing to do with being a Bernie follower. I am a supporter. An enthusiastic one, but my obnoxious online behavior has never, I believe, been on behalf of Bernie. It has been anti-Clinton, but it would have been so regardless of what other candidate I supported. I doubt there's more genuine assholery among Bernie supporters than any other group. I also am sure there's been some Russian intervention. I heard that that is picking up in spite of the efforts of the social media companies

[BullDog]

Assuming Russia still wants Trump to win I would think they will do whatever they can to take down whoever the Democrat is. If they try to help Bernie initially it's because they think he is easy to beat. I expect they will go after Biden hard.

Last I heard, Trump wanted to run against Warren, closely followed by Sanders. I think the Republicans believe those are the easiest ones to run against.

As obnoxious as I find some (emphasis some) Bernie followers, it's the candidate I vote for not the followers. He doesn't stand up or try to stop the obnoxious ones and that is one thing that bothers me. At least McCain spoke up against some of his looney tune followers (yeah he went with Palin which stirred a lot of it up in the first place so definitely far from perfect).

He didn't support Clinton hard enough after he lost. He didn't speak out against the sexism and lies of the Bros. He doesn't help the Democratic party - just runs as a Democrat when it's convenient for him. He's not a team player.

If he wins the Democratic nomination I will vote for him. Then brace for the landslide but still hope for the best.

[Kätzchen]

What I want, and hope we get somebody like this, is person who represents the PEOPLE first. Not a person who represents and embodies the same type of sexist, xenophobic, racist, god-like egotistical personalities we've seen in the past.

I want the very best for the future of the community at large -- a community of people who are least likely to be heard, and when I say that, I mean communities of people who are of every type of background (racial, ethnic, spiritual/faith-based, non-faith-based peoples, those of minority status among most categories of peoples, etc). Because I'm sick to death of the White Privilege card politics, the White-collar politics, or anything to do with privilege over those who have hardly any privilege except be born into a social system where our lives our used to uphold an antiquated system which has proven to cause more human harm and strife, than happiness.

I want the next president of the United States to not only think about how to best represent collective interests here at home, but abroad.

I want a president who won't be like the current monster in the WH.

I want a president whom nearly every person can respect and appreciate because they respect the people who have entrusted and elected them to represent everyone's best interests and not just their own interests or to make a mockery of social law and order and the process of democracy, in it's truest form.

It's early yet, in my mind, so I have every reason to believe that the Democratic Party will find its core strengths and improve on its weaknesses and be as thoughtful and pragmatic and devoted to the best interests of constituents, regardless of party orientation, but primarily focus on Democratic tenets which privilege and empower people, the vast majority of people in our country and globally, and eventually present the best candidate possible to represent the Democratic Party.

[cathexis]

Sanders may be not responding to the jerks using old lefty logic...

You don't react when provociteurs or saboteurs infiltrate. They may be FBI or
other negative influences trying to disrupt a socialist agenda.

Unusually, I will give him the benefit of doubt. Not a Sanders supporter, though. Democratic Socialists want to ride between socialism and capitalism, and are usually liberals, not true revolutionary forces.