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Old 06-13-2010, 09:15 PM   #21
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oy vey.

where were we?
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:19 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow View Post
I am gonna clean my answer up because I don't like giving June a headache..

So lemme make it clear ok?

You and I, ain't homies, we ain't tight...

So, those kinda of comments, keep em to yourself a'ight?

Thank you for listening.
No need to make anything clear with me.

No actually we never have/had been friends.

Its a public thread and i will make comments.

I dont like stereotyping, so i commented. I did not target you, just the words you used.

and im not listening, im reading!
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:22 PM   #23
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No need to make anything clear with me.

No actually we never have/had been friends.

Its a public thread and i will make comments.

I dont like stereotyping, so i commented. I did not target you, just the words you used.

and im not listening, im reading!

Thank you for the correction.

You done petting me in the head?

Cause this is what this feels like, you exerting your privi on me

I am not liking it

So please

Back to topic?
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:37 PM   #24
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oh! sorry, I misinterpreted your intent. this, then, is a thread for femmes, right. I'll just read respectfully and keep to the other thread then.
Thanks for clarifying ...
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No need to make anything clear with me.

No actually we never have/had been friends.

Its a public thread and i will make comments.

I dont like stereotyping, so i commented. I did not target you, just the words you used.

and im not listening, im reading!
I think we should leave the femmes to their thread.

I personally appreciated it when Snow suggested that we just keep our thread butch/trans as she saw that this made the most sense, due to the originally stated goal of the thread.

If this is what you want, Snow, maybe it would be more clear cut if you moved it to the Femme Zone?

I guess I kind of assumed that AtLast put her thread in the Relationships, Communities, and Groups forum so that she did not have to choose between the butch or trans zone, since it is for both groups of people.
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:39 PM   #25
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I think we should leave the femmes to their thread.

I personally appreciated it when Snow suggested that we just keep our thread butch/trans as she saw that this made the most sense.

If this is what you want, Snow, maybe it would be more clear cut if you moved it to the Femme Zone?

I guess I kind of assumed that AtLast put her thread in the Relationships, Communities, and Groups forum so that she did not have to choose between the butch or trans zone.

Well no, my intent was for it to be here.... I think it sucks that I have to go into Femme Zone.

I don't want to go tag base just to feel safe

Make sense?
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:41 PM   #26
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Well no, my intent was for it to be here.... I think it sucks that I have to go into Femme Zone.

I don't want to go tag base just to feel safe

Make sense?
Absolutely. And now I will take my leave. :-)

ETA: And you also did say that it was for anyone other than those that identify as Butches or Transmen (so maybe that is another reason why you wouldn't want it in the femme zone).
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:43 PM   #27
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oy vey.

where were we?
I hope there are more participants then just us two...

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Old 06-13-2010, 10:18 PM   #28
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This thread makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

And here's why:
It feels like, once again, we femmes are being held accountable for the community (or lack of community) between butches and transmen. Even though we are repeatedly told we are not a part of male-id'ed/female id'ed butch or transmen communities(yanno, cuz we're femme. We couldn't possibly have an opinion on those communities). Yet now we are going to discuss our influences in these communities. After awhile, it starts to feel like a "gotcha!" It starts to feel like a trap.

So why am I here? Cause I like Super Femme and The Lady Snow. And I'm secretly hoping I'm wrong.
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:22 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by blush View Post
This thread makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

And here's why:
It feels like, once again, we femmes are being held accountable for the community (or lack of community) between butches and transmen. Even though we are repeatedly told we are not a part of male-id'ed/female id'ed butch or transmen communities(yanno, cuz we're femme. We couldn't possibly have an opinion on those communities). Yet now we are going to discuss our influences in these communities. After awhile, it starts to feel like a "gotcha!" It starts to feel like a trap.

So why am I here? Cause I like Super Femme and The Lady Snow. And I'm secretly hoping I'm wrong.
It's not a trap..

It's a hard conversation, and as much as we don't like it..

We femme's do perpetuate what may or may not happen..

I don't think we aren't allowed opinions, so can I have some clarification on that?


It does happen...

I don't think we are super imposing all responsibilities on femme's alone.

Yes I gotta be honest we do have some influence

Can you please help me out to understand why you feel this may be a trap?

Please?
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:32 PM   #30
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Hi, interesting topic.
Before finding the on line sites
I had no clue
sometimes ignorance is bliss
I have seen what you are talking about some
but then I don't know a lot of people in real time
nor do I talk to most on the phone.

But I have seen it.


when I first started hearing about this I was shocked
so my take on it
1. female/male ided butches and transmen are adults
as such they can take care of themselves
2. the idea of trashing someone based on their Id sickens me
it says more about the person doing the talking than the person being
trashed.
3. when I see it happen. I stay out of it. I do not feel it is my job to stand up for another adult. They can do that for themselves.
4. and as I will always say: humans are humans first, everything else comes after.
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:38 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by blush View Post
This thread makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

And here's why:
It feels like, once again, we femmes are being held accountable for the community (or lack of community) between butches and transmen. Even though we are repeatedly told we are not a part of male-id'ed/female id'ed butch or transmen communities(yanno, cuz we're femme. We couldn't possibly have an opinion on those communities). Yet now we are going to discuss our influences in these communities. After awhile, it starts to feel like a "gotcha!" It starts to feel like a trap.

So why am I here? Cause I like Super Femme and The Lady Snow. And I'm secretly hoping I'm wrong.
aren't we part of that community by virtue of who we love?
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:41 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by amiyesiam View Post
Hi, interesting topic.
Before finding the on line sites
I had no clue
sometimes ignorance is bliss
I have seen what you are talking about some
but then I don't know a lot of people in real time
nor do I talk to most on the phone.

But I have seen it.


when I first started hearing about this I was shocked
so my take on it
1. female/male ided butches and transmen are adults
as such they can take care of themselves
2. the idea of trashing someone based on their Id sickens me
it says more about the person doing the talking than the person being
trashed.
3. when I see it happen. I stay out of it. I do not feel it is my job to stand up for another adult. They can do that for themselves.
4. and as I will always say: humans are humans first, everything else comes after.
I stay out of it too, but then again I am sexually fluid, my attraction to people is not based just solely on gender or gender presentation. So for me and this is just Snow speaking for Snow.

I like em all to be frank.

So to put someone down cause you are now with the other becomes divisive.

I am certainly not speakin for anyone, and know that people can handle their own stuff.

Hence the conception of this thread.
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:42 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by SuperFemme View Post
aren't we part of that community by virtue of who we love?

desire, fuck, partner with, hang out with, play with, etc etc.
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:43 PM   #34
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i'd like to participate, but i kinda feel like i may be one of the people SF was talking about in the post about speaking for butches and that Snow meant when talking about building fences. i hope i never speak for a butch. i have no idea what it's like to be a butch. But i have gotten embroiled in a number of the discussions re the position of female-identified butches on this site and the other.

i feel like i am speaking from my experience of what i have seen.

i definitely know i am not participating to get the approval of a butch or catch her/hys/his attention.

i imagine that people might think i am one of the people building the fences between the two groups. i know that is not my intent.

Maybe i have spent too much time on chat and heard too many femmes refuse to honor a butch's chosen pronouns of she/her and talk about being a true femme and dating only real butches -- and we all know what that stuff means.

i just got fed up. And i saw a lot of sexism in it. And it bothered me.

i hope i have not built fences. But i just really dislike the sexist and homophobic elements in our culture, and i can't seem to ignore them.

So the effect has been that i have stirred some shit in those threads.

How can i influence people to build bridges? i honestly don't know.

i think calling other femmes on their heteronormative bullshit is a first step. That creates some hostility and resentment between groups.

i don't see myself as a support for any category of people on this site or in the butch-femme community. i really basically stand up when i feel something is unfair or needs to be said.
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:48 PM   #35
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good points martina.

lets talk about that. let's be brave.

why would anyone NOT honor chosen pronouns?

how can we encourage each other to honor them? whatever they are?

how can we honor each other in that process?
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:01 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow View Post
It's not a trap..

It's a hard conversation, and as much as we don't like it..

We femme's do perpetuate what may or may not happen..

I don't think we aren't allowed opinions, so can I have some clarification on that?


It does happen...

I don't think we are super imposing all responsibilities on femme's alone.

Yes I gotta be honest we do have some influence

Can you please help me out to understand why you feel this may be a trap?

Please?
From my "me" place, it is very difficult (but very necessary) for me NOT to voice my opinion in transmen/butch threads because I'm around butches/transmen all the time. I'm really bad at keeping my mouth shut in transmen/butch threads. Even when I should, and I know I should, because the discussion isn't about me. It feels unnatural because Goof and I chat it up about everything, and I feel very much a part of his world. So I have a hard time differentiating when a butch/transperson forum discussion doesn't need my femme perspective. It frustrates me. My opinion comment in my first post was a reflection of those feelings.

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:03 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by SuperFemme View Post
There will be a subject/space and all of a sudden a Femme will start speaking and/or translating for a butch/trans person.

Telling the rest of the thread what the butch/trans person really meant and what they intended to say.

I find it very strange when this happens, because there seems to be a lot of gratitude.

In fact I feel kind of shitty for speaking about it right now.

Like my pompoms are gonna burn.

Please don't feel shitty. I'm one of those that does this. I've also taken heat for admitting I'm lazy about pronouns. I chose not to defend myself because a lot was said that was true even though a lot was said that was not true.

I tend to take up for the transguy. Part of that is because I feel like some people put them down for not staying in the role of butch lesbian. Part of that is because I have an over-inflated sense of self-worth and think my opinion matters.

This thing about fences...I can see that.

This thing about it not being my job to foster friendship/community between the transguys and the butches...that was my first response when I read this thread.

Then I went back to the idea of fences. I need to gnaw on that a bit. I want to say that I don't do that, but then again, maybe I do somehow. Hiroshima was my fault too.

I guess, for me, I need to know what does community look like for the transguy and what does it look like for the butch. Is it that different? Is it divided into transguys who fully transition and transguys who don't and transguys who really don't define themselves by what body parts they do or don't have? Is it divided between masculine-id butches and female-id butches and butches who don't give a rat's ass as long as they can be who they are?

How do I as a Femme fit into this? What is my responsibility?

I think that my only responsibility is to work on my own hula hoop and stop speaking for others even if I really do know better then they do what they want to say. (that's self-directed sarcasm for all the Arwen-haters, k?)

I think I need to be friends with and not worry about what others choose to identify as. I am working on not being lazy (even in my own head) about pronouns. I never meant that in a disrespectful way. It was self-deprecating and, for what it's worth, more honest than I guess I should have been.And I have NEVER intentionally disrespected anyone's choice of pronoun. In fact, it's a habit of mine to just ask someone what they want to be called.

I really want to talk more about this idea of fences. Do you really think we (generic) are trying to cut those non-femmes into smaller groups so it's easier to find the ones we are attracted to? Am I understanding you correctly or going off on a wild Arwen tangent?

Last edited by Arwen; 06-13-2010 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:04 PM   #38
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From my "me" place, it is very difficult (but very necessary) for me NOT to voice my opinion in transmen/butch threads because I'm around butches/transmen all the time. I'm really bad at keeping my mouth shut in transmen/butch threads. Even when I should, and I know I should, because the discussion isn't about me. It feels unnatural because Goof and I chat it up about everything, and I feel very much a part of his world. So I have a hard time differentiating when a butch/transperson forum discussion doesn't need my femme perspective. It frustrates me. My opinion comment in my first post was a reflection of those feelings.

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.
I wish you'd give commentary about a femme perspective. Oh please.
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:05 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by blush View Post
From my "me" place, it is very difficult (but very necessary) for me NOT to voice my opinion in transmen/butch threads because I'm around butches/transmen all the time. I'm really bad at keeping my mouth shut in transmen/butch threads. Even when I should, and I know I should, because the discussion isn't about me. It feels unnatural because Goof and I chat it up about everything, and I feel very much a part of his world. So I have a hard time differentiating when a butch/transperson forum discussion doesn't need my femme perspective. It frustrates me. My opinion comment in my first post was a reflection of those feelings.

So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.
This would be a great place to be able to do that! I get it Grant and I have convos about this all the time...

I hope we can have the conversations I really do. It doesn't have to be about *their* perspective....

This space can be about how we see it or experience it, without mucking up the other thread.

Make sense?
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:10 PM   #40
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So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community.

Thanks for being patient with me.

I so get this, blush. I think that is what I felt too. I also see that there is a bigger (or maybe smaller) picture here in the idea of femmes who speak on behalf of one group or another. Why do we do that? Is it a protective thing? I know for me it can be.

Because I know and love transmen, I get really riled at perceived slights. And, that's not mine to get riled over...or is it? Here is where I get really wishy-washy.
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