Stone--Personal Definitions

[StoneOne]

and tagging for later read
Thanks for sharing

[shiagirl]

Originally Posted by StoneOne

and tagging for later read
Thanks for sharing

Following Stone and tagging too for later reading.

[pynkkameleon]

*bumping* this thread so that it doesn't get covered with cobwebs and missed by anyone who might benefit from reading and/or participating within this topic. I think it has a lot of value and importance.

I know that I certainly have learned a lot.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by rustedrims

I didnt mean my question about a "Pillow Princess" to get "heated"..
I just wanted to understand the term..It is i believe taking and not giving..Always thought that because that is the way she was with me..I could go on but i will stop there..
Thanks for all the comments..I did learn something..

actually, for me, no. I'm not stonefemme but I can be an utter pillow princess at times: I love getting "done" and give by gripping, being loud, squirting, panting, adoring, losing myself in it, etc... but I do also give back by enacting sexually on others (sucking, fisting, mouth on flesh "blowjobs" etc) in the ways they require so I can't call myself stonefemme. But I am a serious pillowqueen/bottom for a good chunk of my bedroom life (I do switch it up happily when asked, but happy to respect boundaries too). I'm proud to be one and love it. And never had a single complaint.

those of us who like to "be on our backs" but aren't strictly stone... it's a useful term. or at least I find it to be so.

[Dance-with-me]

Originally Posted by pynkkameleon

*bumping* this thread so that it doesn't get covered with cobwebs and missed by anyone who might benefit from reading and/or participating within this topic. I think it has a lot of value and importance.

I know that I certainly have learned a lot.

Thank you for bumping this! It's exactly what I presumed was here somewhere but hadn't yet looked for and found.

To be honest, I was always unsure of what people meant when they said "stone butch" and even more confused by "stone femme." But I find myself relating to the different descriptions very well.

Part of who I am as a femme is that I respond very strongly to a very masculine sexual energy -- just not in a biological man's body.

Part of my journey as a femme was coming to terms that when I'm sexual with someone, I'm sexual with that person's masculinity -- even if that person is herself not thinking of her body or sexuality as masculine (though I honestly prefer if he does). And I want my lovers to deeply desire that feminine counterpart from me. It has nothing to do with my lover's gender identity: I've had 100% woman-identified lovers who still had a very masculine sexuality. For example, a certain body part might be her clitoris 98% of the time to her, but when she's in bed, she thinks of it completely as her cock, and not just as a term she used as a turn-on in bed, but because that's where her head is. ::ahem::

Am I making any sense?

And to have someone talk about what I'm doing in a feminine/female way is a real turnoff to me. I do not "eat pussy" and to ask me to do so would stop me col - but I have sucked butch cock. I do not ever "fuck" someone else - but I have given some internal pressure that he enjoyed. I do not enjoy being fucked by a dildo - but I do enjoy that same action from another version of butch cock. I do not fondle breasts - but nipple stimulation is enjoyed very much by both men and women. it's not just language: It's MY head space that I need to be in, and the head space I prefer my lover to be in.

There are few boundaries that I have solely because a certain action or body part is (to me) feminizing, as long as it's something that still allows me to maintain a feminine sexual energy that's balancing with a masculine energy. But I also have zero problems respecting my lover's boundaries - but to me that has nothing at all to do with stone or not stone, to me that's what everyone should do for any lover. Some people just don't LIKE certain things, to the point of it being a real turn-off to even imply that they might occur, period. And if I can't respect my lover's boundaries, then I have no business being sexual with that person. So for me, a butch having boundaries or desires that are based on his needs and his body, including needing me to never do certain things that are feminizing to him, even if that means never touching him directly sexually, is NEVER a problem.

Sorry to ramble. I guess what I'm saying is, I realize now (like, past hour "now") that I could be considered a stone femme, using the definition that pertains to relating to my lover only in terms of masculine sexual energy.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

Am I making any sense?

Indeed! You make perfectly good sense to me.

[~ocean]

Am I making any sense?

I feel alot as u do. I consider myself a stonefemme , we r very similar, I also have a very strong submissive side as well. ^ 5 dance well put.

[bright_arrow]

Originally Posted by Stoney

Okay heres some questions I would like to throw out there and hear some feed back.

If a woman is in a relationship with a stone butch , is she now a stone femme?

I am partnered with a stone butch, but it does not change my identity and never has.

Does that change an identity if the person you are with is stone? or would you simply identify as femme?

I have identified as femme since I found the term, even when my partner was stone butch, transgendered, or just a non-identified woman loving woman (does that make sense?).

If you would be changing your style of sex out of respect for the person you were with or is it a lifestyle you would continue to pursue even in a different relationship? also would a woman who identifies as a stone femme whether in a relationship or not only look to date a stone butch?

It is in my nature to touch and be touched, just as it is some's nature to touch and not be touched, or not be touched and touch. However, I look at it more as a "This is what I do not like." as opposed to "This is what you can't ever do." Same thing, yes, but it is easier to wrap my head around. That way I see it just as a preference, and do not take it personally, even though in my mind it is not personal, my heart sometimes takes it personally to the extreme. Does that make sense? I have cried myself to sleep before thinking I was doing something wrong and therefore being punished by not being allowed to touch at all. It just makes me feel down on myself when I think of it like "I can not do this to my partner because they do not want me to." vs. "My partner just prefers not to be touched this way, but they do like it this way."

I know for me, being Stone isnt an issue if it was a casual thing but what about a different senerio, you fall in love with a person who wasnt stone before, or maybe you fall in love with a stone butch and you arent....would you always feel like something was missing? Would you miss making love to a woman? I always wondered if my partner was feeling restricted from something she may desire to do with me or to me , just like I do her.

I won't lie, yes sometimes I feel a void. Coming out, it was always reciprocating sex with my girlfriends, there was no boundaries when it came to our bodies. When I became aware of the butch/femme community, I was partnered with a butch lesbian who identified as stone, but sometimes she would get really out of it (i.e. she was addicted to pain pills) and suddenly that went out the window. Imagine my surprise the next night when she flipped out on my attempts at initiating sex. I quickly became confused as to what was allowed, when it was allowed.. Not trying to come across negatively, just trying to explain my confusion as a newly outed lesbian.

My responses are above in purple.

[pynkkameleon]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

Am I making any sense?

I think that you are making perfect sense. No rambling whatsoever. I too can relate to much of what you've said. Gotta love those "aha" moments. I know that I sure do

[sierragirrl]

I wanted to thank everyone who took the time to post in this thread.
I have enjoyed it and learned a few things.
Thanks again

[Heavenleahangel]

I have been reading through the previous posts and find that everyone has their own opinion (as it should be) as to what "stone" represents or "pillow princess" for that matter.
I personally, do not like labels to define or describe who I am. When I hear "stone" anything I have an understanding that person doesn't want to be "touched" in a feminizing or sexual manor. When I hear "pillow princess" I understand someone who doesn't actively participate in sexual activities. As far as "top", "bottom", "sideways" or any other adjective, I don't get into those, either. Whether it's inexperience on my part, or naivety, I'm not sure.
What I do consider to be important is when I am contemplating dating or partnering with someone, I take it upon myself to have "the talk" if my potential partner hasn't already. I take the time to get to know (point blank even) what that person expects and to explain what my expectations are. As we all know, "the dance" and all aspects of it can and should be deal breakers if both parties don't "match up". Its a clear issue of respect, and RESPECT is the most important thing in ANY relationship. Maybe I am the one who is outdated and maybe my way of thinking is why I am still single. But I don't need a label to define me.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I don't need a "label" iether, 99% of the time I don't need to use the term femme either. But words are handy to communicate. I see you use the OFOS "label" and "femme" so you must understand some value to the descriptors. I'm not OFOS so to me personally it's a useless label and don't understand the point in defining that way - because I personally don't need to use it when communicating with someone about preferences.

However, I have particular preferences in the bedroom, therefore I do need words to describe those preferences.

I used have this argument with one of my exes who does not ID as anything. Just dyke. I personally see her as a butch. And probably one of the most old fashioned I've ever been with. She doesn't like "labels" but she uses them all the time: step mom, sister, woman and dyke. All labels. It's just labels that mean something to her. She used to take the piss out of me for using femme (good naturedly). I finally told her that it's all well and good when it's easy to say "I'm attracted to girly girls" and just go with that, but when your attractions aren't common and the way you express yourself sexually is not 'normative' (You don't care what kind of sex you have, it's all good to you and you don't have fetishes or have strong preferences) then you need words to be able to describe them. It's very hard to order a chocolate milkshake if you can't use the words chocolate or milkshake. Whereas if you don't care what you get you can walk up to a counter and say 'food please' and it all works for you."

She said "oh. good point."
Because I have a different definition of butch than lots of people... for me butch is just someone who has a preference for boys or masculine clothes and has a cock even just some of the time. And that's it. nothing else. If I'm talking about those I find most attractive, they are cheeky, don't take life too seriously, dress casual-dapper mostly. lots of tats. smudgy black eyeliner and like to try new things. And a kinky fucker. but that's just personal. Notice the words "cheeky" (personality trait label), casual-dapper (dress sense label) and Kinky (sexual genera label).
I prefer certain sexual dynamics and rough sex. I have words that would describe that short hand. these are useful as a launch point to start conversations when they are in context with others, but I don't walk around saying "I'm a sadistic switchy submissive fuck doll" as an introduction. I very even rarely use the word "femme". But on line we can't interact the way we do in person and looking for others on line... it's usually where people whip out the short hand. That's why you'll see it so much in a forum for people who fall under those categories. outside this arena, I almost never use those terms. I talk about what movie I watched last and what grades I got on my finals and swapping stories and having a laugh.

the online stuff doesn't really reflect my in the flesh life.

[Blaze]

Bumping this thread, I need to come back and put my two cent's later. This is very interesting and needs to be bumped now and again....

[Jhenay]

Stone Femme, and not a pillow princess.

MUAH !

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Nat

I thought I was stone for a while in that I had issues penetrating another person. I found it upsetting and it turned me off. In my case, though, it was a stopping place on my own journey, rather than the final port of call.

I eventually figured out I was deeply afraid of violating another person, that when I went there, it bothered me because of this fear - to the point where I was dissociating a bit. On top of that, I was just new and I hate being bad at stuff.

Over time and in increments, what part of me I considered stone went away. I am still extremely concerned with knowing boundaries and with trusting my lover to have a strong "no" should she ever need to use it, because I don't want to find out after the fact that something I have done made another person feel violated. It's still a really deep fear. Having confidence and trust in this respect has just really allowed me to be in my own skin and just be able to enjoy (relish) those experiences which I was most reticent about before. Plus, it helps when you're with somebody just really amazing.

Even though I'm not stone anymore, I am really grateful to those stone femmes who were there for me back then. Without several wise stone femme voices, I may have mistakenly felt during that time that maybe I wasn't queer after all or queer enough. I was very recently out of a straight marriage at that time, and I was so unsteady on my feet. The voices and presence of stone people within the community really made me feel like there was a home for me here whether or not I had the capacity or desire to perform to the standards and reciprocity levels that I may have otherwise felt were expected of me.

Heh. I was thinking of posting here but eventually it looked familiar to me and so I searched and found myself. Much of what I said above remains the same now.

I've run into enough variations with butches who call themselves stone and those who do not that I mainly take that word to mean I need more info before proceeding in certain directions, while erring on the side of caution. I think I tend to do this with most butches unless I get like a hundred percent have-at green light.

I'm really glad people know their boundaries because what really sucks is when people don't know their boundaries til they've been crossed. I guess to me stone equates to boundaries more than identity or whom I would date or whom that person would date. I'm not stone, but I certainly wouldn't kick a stone butch out of bed. Or a stone femme either for that matter.

Chemistry is magical - to me the boundaries, the different dynamics between two people - it's just all part of that same magic - something largely unique to me and that other person. What acts are performed or how or what parts are treated what ways etc - all of that is part of the natural flow and the magic, the play of darkness and light, the energy exchange when the chemistry's right. To me the chemistry is the main deal, and everything else can be worked with or around - and trust is part - the biggest part - of that.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I can really relate to that. the first three female lovers I had were stone. and I did not want to penetrate anyone. I was very slowly introduced to it by my fourth whom made me understand it wasn't feminising. once I understood that, that the inside of a butch felt...well... *butch* I was good to go.

I didn't ID as stonefemme then as it never really came up as an ID up for discussion. I didn't start seeing it until later. I saw it as just a factual boundary. Not really an ID, at the time. Sort of like, if someone isn't into anal sex. or nipple clamps.

Since then it hasn't really been a big deal if someone is stone or not in terms of penetration. But I do need someone who's willing to let me feel their flesh cock swell in my mouth. cause I can't not ever not have that again. But as for being penetrated... if they don't want it... ok. plenty of other things to do for them.

But since I am happy to penetrate those who want it, I can't call myself a stonefemme. And since 80% submissive and bottom... I go for the label of fuckdolly or pillowqueen.

so. Chemistry IS the big deal. completely. I've had a huge learning curve about the difference between a dominant and a top. And it makes a heap of sense now.

[Blaze]

You know, this one is going to be difficult for me to express, only because so many of you have touched bases on what I wanted to say. But let me give it a try anyway... Perhaps, in a different view.
I recall my childhood years as always wishing I was a boy, I grew up with 97% male entities around me, though I worshiped my Mother. So basically everything about me was male identified. Except when my Mother put the dresses on and shooed me off to school. But I quickly figured out how to out smart her, (or so I thought) by putting on shorts under the dress and as I was shooed out the door I would pull off the dress and put on my t-shirt and toss the dress into the bushes knowing that I had to run home quickly so I could put the dress on as if I had been wearing it all day. (Mom stopped forcing me to wear them when she found them in the bushes daily is what she admitted to me much later in life) <~What a Woman!


In my teens/young twenties. I was just one of the boys, sports, cars, surfing, checking out woman. And I also remember my Mother taking me to Sears and allowing me to shop in the men's department, even allowing me to wear boxers because I would steal my brothers new ones that she bought them, so she just let me pick my own because theirs were to big for me anyway. Flash forward to my first relationship, She respected my masculinity and allowed me to be the aggressor and become the male identified person that I was. So I guess you could say I was lucky to have a woman that was Stone Femme and we both appreciated each others company and space. Now my next relationship was short lived, as I tried for weeks to explain to her that she didn't do anything wrong, I wasn't punishing her and that I did adore her, but didn't want to be touched in the places she so wanted to touch me on. I think it was Des'd that expressed that familiar experience. I felt just as bad, and even questioned if I was doing this correctly, or if I was being selfish, mean, or fridge d. So that ended as quickly as it started.


I pretty much took a break from relationships and just concentrated on life in general. Hanging with the older Butch gendered that took the time to teach me the old school ethics and expectations to which I grew very fond of, and I cherish the time and labor they put into making it easier for the rest of us to just walk into too. Teaching me that It was okay to question, but I had the right to state my expectations as well, So became the entitlement of calling myself a Stone Butch, and being relaxed to state that this was my preferences, this is what I wanted, and this is who I am. Now at the present, I am a true believer in knowing that what ever makes you (the person you are comfortable as) is who you need to be true too. I am very comfortable in my own skin, I look male most of the time, the few that actually look deeper and identify me as female, empowerment to them, they took the time to notice, and I don't get all bent out of shape because the pegged me, lol.


So yes, I'm top, yes I am masculine identified, yes I am a woman, yes I still have menopausal heat flashes that are pesky. And yes. I am proud of being a Butch, and labeled Transgendered identified, and Stone. Everyone has brought very vital and interesting points to the thread and I wish I could touch on every one of them, but y'all did the definition justice and make it much easier for others who are trying to figure out who they are, or where they belong. Bravo to all of you for the honesty and dedications!


I'm just happy to be who I am, and don't intend to be what everyone else wants me to be. Life is meant to be lived, and you have to make it comfortable to live in. Be YOU!

Perhaps I danced around the subject, but then again, everyone else said what I wanted to, but better than I. So thank you.

[DapperButch]

Great, great post Blaze! Glad you took the time to write it!

[Cin]

I have tossed around the definition of stone butch for myself. Ultimately I decided it didn’t exactly fit and might be a bit of false advertising. Although truthfully it seems that in my life not identifying as stone has caused more problems. If you don’t say you are stone the expectation is that you are open with your body, at least to some degree. In my opinion I am to a degree, but that is subjective and others have disagreed. I guess I would say I’m 85/15 stone.

But I would hesitate to take the definition of stone because I don’t seem to fit some of the criteria that might be an expectation should I claim the identity. For example I don’t cum getting someone else off. I enjoy it immensely but that is all. For me not being touched is to a degree about not caring to surrender and it is also about not enjoying the focus on my body. But I still can’t get off focusing on hers and sometimes I need a release. I do identify with not taking my clothes off easily. I need to trust before that can happen. I'm not sure what that is about except control. Another piece that is missing for me that I hear many stone butches talking about is butch cock. I don’t have a butch cock which is probably why it doesn’t get off fucking someone. I very much enjoy strapping on and fucking my femme’s brains out, but I am not capable of viewing it as an extension of my body and I don’t cum doing it. Interestingly enough I can easily cum if I leave off the dildo and just fuck cunt to cunt but it doesn't work to call it my cock. Another aspect of being stone for some butches seems to be getting head on their butch cock. I don’t have a butch cock so I can’t feel it that way but beyond that I don’t care for receiving oral sex. I can live with it, but I find it a rather focused process that makes me a tad uncomfortable. It requires more attention to my clit than I am able/willing to live with a good percentage of the time. However I rather enjoy being penetrated every now and again. That 15% is mostly about that. I have no problem with penetration in any form. I’m just more interested in pleasing than I am in being pleased. More interested, but not dead to the idea of getting some for myself once in awhile.

So stone was never something I felt comfortable taking as an identity. But I have always been open and willing to engage in conversation about what I need and what I am capable of bringing sexually to a relationship. I am also willing to hear what my partner needs and is capable of bringing as well. I’m lucky to have found someone I am compatible with but we are both willing to make some compromises some times. That’s important I think. Being able to be comfortable making a compromise for your partner without the personal cost being too high. There are some things that it is impossible for me to compromise on, some stuff is just a no go, but I am always willing to consider stretching and extending my limits. Getting outside my comfort zone is pretty rewarding. I guess that is also why I feel I can’t take the identity of stone. However, not saying hey I’m stone has caused me some problems with expectations and I’ve been a source of disappointment to a few femmes in my life, but thankfully that’s over.

I’m just posting this here in case there are others like me who feel they might be stone but don’t feel they exactly fit the definition and hesitate to disappoint or confuse by claiming it. You’re not alone. It’s a challenge as how to identify. Fortunately we have our words and an open honest dialogue with a potential partner goes a long way.

[Dreamer]

The one thing I truly love about the butch/femme dynamic is that there are no clear boundaries on what is what, what matters is what you feel inside and how you see yourself. People who identify as stone may all have a different no go area or something they feel defines them and allows them to identify that way. Ultimately it is what you feel. If you believe that you are stone then don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I do not meet all the expectations of what people believe stone is either but I can say that yes I am Stone, and if you ask Julie I am sure she would agree with me. So be true to yourself and your partners and be who you are.